All Christians agree on each of hte basic propositions that form the foundation for Trinitarianism, though Christians sometimes disagree on (1) how to explain the relationships between these basic statements and (2) what other biblical teachings might be added to the basic list to fill out the doctrine of the Trinity. This implies that all branches of the Church are unified in their basic confession of the Trinity so that whatever variations exist do not undermind the confession of trinitarian faith. It means that Christians are united in theirview of who God is. The Church is one. It also means that whoever does not afree with these basic biblical foundations for the trinitarian faith is, by definition, not a Christian.
---

Before starting these basic propositions, it is important to say a few words about the often-noted fact that the word Trinity is not found in the Bible. Christians ask or are askedwhy, if the word is not in the Bible, do they use it? The answer is simple and has nothing to do with some conspiracy to add something to the Bible that really is not there. The word Trinity is used for theological and practical convenience -- it is 'theologicalshorthand,' a single word that sums up a series of biblical teachings. Instead of repeating the whole series of every time we speak of God, we substitute a single word that summarizes the truth. What, then, are these basic biblical propositions? The basic truth, wich all Christians afree upon, can be expressed in five propositions.

1. There is one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Spirit is God.
5. The Father, Son, and Spirit are distinguishable persons in relationship with one another. They are not merely different names for the one God.

Analogy: Crystals of salt that appear on the beach after the tide has receded may be the most apparent proof that the sea is saltwater, but every bucket of water drawn from the ocean testifies clearly to the fact.

REFERENCES:
- - -
1. There is one God. (Deut. 6:4; I Sam. 2:2; 2Kgs. 19:15; Is. 37:16; 44:8; Mk. 12:28-24; I Cor. 8:4-6; I Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19). That the Bible teaches this proposition is not disputed.

2. The Father is God. (Rom. 1:7; I Cor. 1:3; 8:6 15:24; 2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 4:6; Phil. 4:20). Again, this proposition is seldom disputed.
3. The Son is God. Because this proposition is frequently denied, I give a fuller statement of evidence, but still only scratches the surface.
a. The Son is called God. ( Jn. 1:1; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Tit. 2:13; Heb. 1:8).
b. The Son is given divine names. (Jn. 1:1, 18; Acts 5:31; I Cor. 2:8; Jas. 2:1; Rev. 1:8, 21:6; 22:13).
c. The Son has divine attributes.
i. Eternity. (Jn. 1:2; 8:58; 17:5; Rev. 1:8, 17; 22:13).
ii. Immutability. (Heb. 1:11, 12; 13:8).
iii. Omnipresence. (Jn. 3:13; Mt. 18:20; 28:20).
iv. Omniscience. (Mt. 11:27; Jn. 2:23-25; 21:17; Rev. 2:23).
v. Omnipotence. (Jn. 5:17; Heb. 1:3; Rev. 1:8; 11:17).
d. The Son does divine works.
i. Creation. (Jn. 1:3, 10; Col. 1:16-17)
ii. Salvation. (Acts 4:12; 2 Tim. 1:10; Heb. 5:9).
iii. Judgment. (Jn. 5:22; 2 Cor. 5:10; Mt. 25:31-32).
e. The Son is worshipped as God. (Jn. 5:22-23; 20:28; I Cor. 1:2; Phil. 2:9-10; Heb. 1:6).
4. The Spirit is God. Those whose accept the biblical evidence for the deity of the Son seldom have trouble understanding the evidence for the deity of the Spirit.
a. The Spirit is called God. (Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 3:17).
b. The Spirit is given divine names. (Mt. 12:28).
c. The Spirit has divine attributes. (I Cor. 2:13-14; Gal. 5:22; I Tim. 4:1; Heb. 3:7; 9:14; I Jn. 5:6-7).
d. The Spirit does divine works. (Jn. 6:33; 14:17, 26; 16:13; Acts 1:8; 2:17-18; 16:6; Rom. 8:26; 15:19; I Cor. 12:7-11).
e. The Spirit is worshipped as God. (Mt. 12:32).
5. The Father, Son and Spirit are distinguishable persons in relationship with one another. They are not merely different names for one God.
a. The Son prays to the Father. (Jn. 11:41-42; 17; Mt. 26:39 ff)
b. The Father speaks to the Son. (Jn. 12:27-28).
c. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit - all three - appear together, but are clearly distinct from one another. (Mt. 3:16-17).
d. The Father sends the Son and Spirit, and the Son sends the Spirit. (Jn. 3:17; 4:34; 5:30; 6:39; 14:26; 15:26; 16:7)
e. The Father and Son love one another. (Jn. 3:35; 5:20; 10:17; 14:31; 15:9-10; 17:24).

The Trinity and Logic
- - -
Though it is clearly the teaching of the Bible, cultic groups and atheists often complain that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is a contradiction. How can there be one God and at the same time three who are called God? Christians seem to be saying that 1+1+1=1. This is simply bad arithmetic, we are told, not profound theology. The fact is, however, that the doctrine of the Trinity neither involves nor implies a contradiction. How, then, does a Christian explain that God is both one and three at the same time? The answer, in part, is that He is not one in precisely the same way that He is three. Trinitarianism would be a contradiction if it affirmed that God is one and three in precisely the same sense, but no one in the history of the Church has ever taught such a view. All the same, this is only a partial
answer.

There is a very great difference between something being a demonstrated contradiction and something being incomprehensible.

All words besides biblical references from Trinity & Reality An Introduction to the Christian Faith by Ralph A. Smith.

Yes, Heath21. This is this book that I want you to pick up.

Into the discussion I will go deeper into thought and show you what the Trinity is comprised of, and show the logic behind it.

Firstly, you didn't have to mention my name to the public.

I still don't believe in it, God is not 3 different persons

But I don't mind seeing others views on this.

You said you believe in God's word. Now I'm showing it to you, and you're openly denying it. Well, I guess there's no more as a Christian I can do for you.

I believe there are things beyond our knowledge that we cannot explain, only God can, but what I do know that God, Jesus and the Holy spirit are different and one in the same and in some weird way to know God you first must know Jesus, and to have a relationship we must have the Holy Spirit within us.

Eh, however relevant the above was to the topic.

Exactly. The Trinity is a mystery and incomprehensible.

Yes, I do believe in God's word but the Trinity is not in anyway God's word, it isn't even in the Bible, it is not biblical and it was man-made, not God-made which is why I do not believe in it. So, therefore, it is not God's word.

Jessica, wanted me to tell you this, she is sick and isn't able to come and post this so I am giving you her answer on the whole trinity thing:

"You are underestimating God by believing in the trinity because by believing in it you are saying that God can't be in two or three places at once, that because Jesus was on earth that he can't be God because God would have to be in heaven. You don't understand that we cannot even begin to think like God does, he is on higher thinking level and has powers we can't even begin to comprehend on earth, he is not of this world so we can't think of him as if he is an earthly being. You are saying he is not powerful enough to be on earth and in heaven at the same time. When Jesus prayed to the father, he was praying to the spirit of God which was in him, see Jesus was fully man and fully God, the flesh part of him was totally different then the spirit of him, which was the full God part of him. So his flesh flesh prayed to his spirit, and his flesh said "father why hast thou forsaken me" on the cross, that was his flesh crying out. That's why the bible tells us to fast and pray because fasting, going without food, weakens our flesh and strengthens our spirit, that's why Jesus fasted for 40 days in the desert, he was preparing himself for his death. People who believe in the trinity also believe in getting baptized in the name of the father, son, and holy ghost when the bible tells us after Jesus was ressurected and ascended up to heaven, to get baptized in the name of Jesus only, not in the name of the father son and holy ghost. Acts 2:38 and other scriptures tell us to do it in the name of Jesus, why? Because he is the Father, he is the son, and he is the holy ghost, he sums up all three. The trinitarians, lol, will argue with you about that because Jesus himself told us to get baptized in the name of the father, son, and holy ghost, but after his death and ressurection, we had to get baptized in the name of Jesus because Jesus wasn't going to tell us to get baptized in his name, he wanted us to belieive he was God so that we would eventually realize that we need to pray in his name, get baptized in his name and so on."

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all your heart;do not depend on your own understanding.

Wait, this is relevant, let me think why I posted this

It's just theological shorthand to describe God. That's all. I know it's man made. That's all I'm trying to say.

- - -

Personhood and Harmony
- - -
The implications of the doctrine of the Trinity are far-reaching and deep. How could it be otherwise? God is the infinite, incomprehensible, transcendent Lord. He is also the Father, who is always near us. When we consider the implications of trinitarianism, we are meditating on who He is and how He reveals Himself to us. Because of His majesty and greatness, we are too confronted with mystery -- but the mystery is neither dark nor foggy. It is the radiant luster of God's light that overwhelms us. The Christian God is a mystery to us but not to Himself. The Persons of the Trinity have an absolute knowledge of one another. In the mind of God, truth is an entirely rational and perfect system, for God cannot contradict Himself (2 Tim. 2:13; Tit. 1:2; Jas. 1:13, 17).

A Personal God and a Personal World
- - -
Of all the gods in all the religions of the world, only the triune God of the Bible is truly and wholly personal. This point is often not recognized, so we will dwell on it briefly. First, consider the non-Christian theism embraced by Jews, and Muslims, the belief in a single god who rules the world. By itself, theism will not suffice to give us a truly personal god, for a god who is utterly and simply one -- a mere monad -- fails to have the qualities we know to be essential to personality. Although an absolute monad, like the god of Islam, is the most exalted non-Christian idea of deity, a monad is a being who is eternally alone -- with one other to love, no other with whom to communicate, and no other with whom to have fellowship. In the case of such a solitary god, love, fellowship, and communication cannot be essential to his being. Indeed, they are no part of the monad at all. But without these qualities it is difficult to imagine that the deity so understood is in any meaningful sense personal. To conceive of a god who does not know love, a god who has never shared, a god for whom a relationship with another is eternally irrelevant, is to conceive of an abstraction, an idea or a thing more than a person.

If, to make his god more personal, a believer in such a deity suggested that his god loved the world after he created it, the result would be a god who changes in time and who needs the world in order to grow into his self realization as a god of love -- a god who becomes personal only with the help of the creation. Suppose one asserted that the monad loved the world from eternity? Then the personality of this deity and his attributes of love would still depend for their existence on the world he created. Creation would be a necessary act of self-becoming. For, unless this deity created the world, he could not realize the love that had been eternally hidden in him, waiting for its time to shine forth.

- - -

This says that God cannot be one being(monad) because that would make him inconsistent and non loving. The fact that God is so uniquely a triune God makes the Christian faith make sense. Without the Trinity we are just another theistic group out there, such as Judaism and Islam.

- - -

All the text that I write here is from the book previously mentioned. I suggest anyone who is interested in the Trinity should pick it up and read it. It's truly a great Christian book, and I hate Christian books...besides the Bible.

Exactly. Therefore, study whats in the Bible, do not listen to what is man-made and what others preach. God made his Word pretty darn clear.

That's not what its saying at all. It means don't listen to your own reasonings. Its saying that God is more powerful than you and has perfect knowledge and understanding. We don't.

Read something besides the Bible. Reason with it. If it makes sense and lines up with what the Bible says than it can't be bad.

As I was saying in my last post, God is love. To have love you need some one to love. If God was one being how could He love?

God says that he created man in his own image. Correct? So, if God truly was one being(monad) than we would be created with out love and have no personal attachment to anybody else.

If Muslims and Jews applied their notions of god consistently to their worldview, man's personality, too, would be found to lack ultimate meaning. Things that we rightly regard as essential to man's personhood -- that man speaks, laughs, and loves -- could only be accidental truths at best. Nothing in the deity would correspond to social relations. This raises a question: What would it mean to say that we are created in the image of the lonely monad? If man is thought to be like such a god, what impact would that have, for example, on our notion of the ideal life in this world? Should it be one that lacks these personal qualities or transcends them? What about the idea of heaven? Should man look forward to an eternity of silent self-contemplation?

Think about it. To have a Triune God only makes sense.

If we never listened to anything besides the Bible, how would we know what is what? You obviously learned at least some bits of math, English, history, science... To say that we should only trust God's word is a superficial truth. You can't grasp His word if you have no knowledge of outside influences. That's why alot of Christians need to go through some sort of struggle to understand God's word. They will read something and not understand it. You won't find it in any text books, or anything, but it's something that you need to experience. If God made everything black and white, don't you think that the church would have one set rule of doctrines? The Bible isn't always clear. That's one thing that you need to learn. What else that you need to learn is that you can't be blind in your faith.

It's very clear in what it says, trust the lord - meaning read his word, do not depend upon your own understanding of what you "think" he means, he is very clear in his Word.

Don't assume. I do read other books other then the Bible, Christian books and I love them. But I am going to go off of God's word and God's word only which is the Bible, if a certain thing is not in there, I will not believe in it.

I have a question for you:

The Bible makes it clear that you shall not have sex outside of marriage. What technicality it doesn't imply is that you don't only have to have sex with your spouse. So, knowing that, would you say that the Bible is always clear?

There's a certain code that runs throughout the Bible. It's called the Heptetic code. Starting at a certain point you could a certain number of letters or characters. After you reach that one, you count the same amount again. I think it's every 49 letters or something like that. There is no where in the Bible that mentions God's word having such a unique code to show that God truly did inspire the Bible.

How do you feel about that? Such uncertainties.

This same kind of biblical ignorance is all too present around the topic of homosexuality. Often people who love and trust God's Word have never given careful and prayerful attention to what the Bible does or doesn't say about homosexuality.

For example, many Christians don't know that:

* Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior.
* The Jewish prophets are silent about homosexuality.
* Only six or seven of the Bible's one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way -- and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it's understood today.

Most people who are certain they know what the Bible says about homosexuality don't know where the verses that reference same-sex behavior can be found. They haven't read them, let alone studied them carefully. They don't know the original meaning of the words in Hebrew or Greek. And they haven't tried to understand the historical context in which those words were written. Yet the assumption that the Bible condemns homosexuality is passed down from generation to generation with very little personal study or research. The consequences of this misinformation are disastrous, not only for God's gay and lesbian children, but for the entire church.

He's right.

Yes that is in there and it is clear. It says not to fornicate which is sex before marriage but it also says not to committ adultry which is having sex with another man while being married or having sex with someone else's spouse.

Same sex behavior is mentioned in the Bible, heres the verse:

Leviticus 18:22
Do not lie with a man as one lies
with a woman; that is detestable.

Romans 1:26,27
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.
Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations
with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.
Men committed indecent acts with other men,
and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

1Corinthians 6:9-10
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Ps: This is only three, there are more.

I was using it as an example.

I am making a point, you say that Christians don't understand that Jesus never mentions homosexuality in the Bible when he does, I doubt that was just an example by this line here:

"For example, many Christians don't know that:

* Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior."

He doesn't. God talks about homosexuality. Not Jesus.

God is Jesus - read the Bible it clearly states it.

Jesus was a prophet. I gave you a thousand different references that says that Jesus is God's son and apart of the Trinity. It doesn't make sense that Jesus is 100% God. Why would Jesus pray to God in the garden of Gathseminae? However you spell it. Why would Jesus ask God, 'Why has Thou forsaken me?'

It only makes sense to say that Jesus is not 100% God. It's a Trinity. Do I really need to list those references again?

I also posted you a thing that Jessica said about that, about him praying in the Garden to God - her pastor explained why it is that way and he also explained why the trinity is wrong. Jesus was the messiah, he even claimed in the Bible as being the messiah. Like I said read the word of God, it tells you. I do not need your references to know what the Bible talks about. But thanks for offering

Oh, so the Bible is clear on all things except Jesus praying to God in the garden. Hmm. That's interesting how you contradict yourself.

I never once contradicted myself. I think the whole praying to God thing makes total sense.

Ps: I have a Question for you. You claim that Jesus is not God, if that is so then what do you think this verse means:

John 1: 1-5.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

So, in that verse it's pretty clear they are saying that God created everything and that he is the Word.

Now, look at this verse:

John 1: 10-14.
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

This last verse shows us that Jesus was in fact God, hence the part of the verse that says - "The Word became flesh" meaning Jesus. This is why the Trinity is false because the Trinity teaches that Jesus is the son of God and is not in fact God but a prophet and that they are all different persons. They are all the same and no different from eachother. As I said, read the Bible, it clearly states that Jesus is God.

I never said that Jesus wasn't God. What I am saying is that they are two distinguishable persons in the Trinity. Read this. This might clear things up.

- - -

First, we will take time to consider the truth that what God does in history reaveals who He is in eternity. In part, this isa simple deduction from the fact that God cannot change. He is self-consistent.

In the creation of the world and through His leading in history, God is manifesting Himself.

Second, we will look into the implications of an ancient theological word -- perichoresis in Greek, circumincessio in Latin -- that points to an important aspect of the Trinity. The theological terms are technical, but the truth expressed is straightforward: each of the Persons of the Trinity dwells in the others. This comes to expression most frequently in the Godpel of John, where our Lord repeatedly says that He is 'in the Father' and the Father is 'in' Him.

The incomprehensible depth and transparent clarity of GOd's self-revelation are united in the revelation that He has given to us in His Son.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth...
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (Jn. 1:14, 18)

Is there a biblical word that sums up God's self-revelation in history? No doubt there is more than one perspective from which to view the subject, but the most frequent employed biblical device for structuring history is the covenant. From the Garden of Eden to the end of the world, God establishes covenants that define His relationship with man, and He never relates to man apart from a covenant. This raises the question about God Himself: Do these covenants reveal God's nature? The answer to that question is given, in part, in the fact that the relationship between the Father and the Son embraces all the elements of the biblical idea of covenant and reveals most deeply its meaning.

The Elements of a Covenant
- - -
Though God reveals Himself in all of His works throughout history, it is appropriate to begin with His glorious manifestation of Himself in Christ, for only in the light of the knowledge of Christ can we grasp, for what it truly is, everything else God has done in history. Jesus is the center of our calendar because He is the center of all. In the Bible the centrality of Christ is seen in the fact that the entire Old Testament era is spent waiting for the coming of the Messiah, with the prophets declaring various aspects of His saving work and proclaiming the glories of His reign and the histories foreshadowing His person and work. From the fall of Adam onward, the whole of biblical revelation is focused on the seed of the woman (Gen. 3:15).

Hierarchy
- - -
When we consider the gospel accounts, especially the Gospel of John, another aspect of God's self-revelation through the incarnation of Christ becomes clear. One of the most frequently repeated themes in the Gospels is that the Father sent the Son into the world (Mt. 10:40; 15:24; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 4:43; 9:48; 10:16; Jn. 3:17; 4:34; 5:23, 24, 30, 36, 37; 6:29, 38, 39, 40; 7:16, 18; and others). This fact has a number of significant implications, but one of the most simple and obvious is that there is a hierarchy within the Trinity. The Father sends the Son. The Son submits to the Father's will. In the words of Jesus, "And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him" (Jn. 8:29). Of course, the very name Father and Son imply the hierarchical relationship, expressed so frequently in the Gospels as Jesus' obedience to the Father His seeking the Father's honor and glory. Though it is not emphasized, the same relationship can be seen between the Spirit and the Son, for the Son, together with the Father, sends the Spirit, and the Spirit glorifies the Son (Jn. 15:26; 16:7, 14).

Hierarchy in relationship means that the Father is greater than the Son in His office only, not in His being. The Father sends the Son, but the Son does not send the Father. The Father and the Son send the Spirit, but the Spirit does not send the Father and the Son. The official hierarchy of the Persons if their eternal relationship. It does not imply that the Son is less powerful or that He does not fully share the omniscience of the Father. On the contrary, the Son and the Holy Spirit possess all the attributes of GOd to the same infinite degree as the Father. The Persons of the Trinity are equal in their being but different in their personhood, existing in a hierarchy of Father, Son, and Spirit.

It's clear that you have stated that he isn't God, read what you have said....



If you don't say that Jesus isn't God, then what is this?




????

Omg, Heath21.. I don't know what to tell you. The Trinity is a contradiction that no-one could ever possibly understand. Each member is individual and part of God at that same exact time. It's another contradiction in the Bible that clearly exists. You just have to have faith that God is powerful enough to make such a contradiction possible.

That term is a sin against one of God's 10 commandments. Do NOT use the Lord's name in vain. Read the 10 commandments.

"Omg" does not necessarily include God's name in vein, so don't jump on him for that...

Are you serious?

Yes it is.



Actually, yes I am.

You know what, I would rather not debate on that.

I'm just pointing out to a fellow Christian that that term is a use in God's name in a bad way. I am not saying I don't do it but I do regret it afterwards. Anytime you use it in that way or with a curse word it's taking his name in Vain.

^ Yeah, it might be bad for a Christian to say, but what about for someone who isnt a Christian?

Its just like being Hindu and not eating pork. But that doesnt mean a non - Hindu cant eat pork. Okay weird analogy. Sorry.

It's still bad to anyone who takes his name in vain and in the end you will be punished for it. When I said to a fellow Christian what I mean is it's even worse if you claim your Christian and commit deliberate sin.

So I suppose you're basically saying that although you may not know about something, it will still affect you.

Well, no I'm saying if you know something and still deliberately do it it will affect you. I am just making sure another person knows it so they don't repeat it deliberately especially if they are Christian, it can ruin there walk with God.

It's not a contradiction. Did you not read what I put? God cannot contradict Himself.

The Trinity is not a contradiction, but rather incomprehensible.

Your right God can't contradict himself but you got to remember the Trinity isn't biblical as I have said many many many times. I do not mean this in a rude way but it's sad that so many people are taught the trinity is a good thing when it isn't even in the Bible.

The term Trinity is not in the Bible, and we have heard you the first time.

The term Trinity is only used to describe God's attributes. Instead of saying that:

1. There is one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Spirit is God.
5. The Father, Son, and Spirit are distinguishable persons in relationship with one another. They are not merely different names for the one God.

That's all the Trinity means.

God is only different in His personhoods not His being. There are three personhoods. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit. They are distinguishable personhoods within one God. It's littered all over the New Testament. I've put over fifty references that prove this.

Now, what you have to determine is...

What defines a personhood? Is it a literal person, or an office? Well, considering we have a Triune God who is one, it could not possible mean that there are three people because that would mean that we would have a Polytheistic faith. Considering Christianity falls under a monotheistic faith, something must tell us that God is one.

We both agree that God is one being. True? What you don't believe is that God holds different offices within the Trinity.

Christianity, all of it, believes we have one God. But a monadic God is a wrong belief. Without the Trinity there would be no love, no covenants, no relationships...just solitude among the many.

Here's why it is wrong:

The trinity is a MANMADE concept. Absolutely NO biblical basis.

It violates the following 3 verses.

Deuteronomy 4:2 (New International Version)

2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 (New International Version)

32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.


Proverbs 30:6 (New International Version)

6 Do not add to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

So, by the verses I have given you it is saying to not add to his bible (his word) or take things out of it or you'll be punished. By believing the trinity you are adding to his word because the trinity is not biblical.

Ha ha. I'm not adding Trinity to the Bible. Like I said....It's BIBLICAL SHORTHAND! What about that don't you understand?!?!?!?!

You said not too long ago that you believe that God created the world and evolution took over after that creating new species. What about that is correct according to your logic that nothing should be added or taken from the Bible?

And when it states that nothing should be added or taken away, it's talking about chapters and books in whole. For instance, the Catholic Bible has extra books added to it.

And also, the New Internation Version is very unreliable. The King James version is the best because you can study it. Find literal translations in Hebrew and Greek from it, unlike the New Internation Version. I recommend you picking one up, or if you have one, start reading that. It's not that hard to understand.

John 11:41 - Jesus speaks to the Father.
Then they took away the stone [from the place] where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up [his] eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

Matthew 3:16-17 - The Father, the Son, and the Spirit - all three - appear together, but are clearly distinct from one another.
The Father, the Son, and the Spirit - all three - appear together, but are clearly distinct from one another.

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

So according to Matthew 3:17, if Jesus is God, then who is speaking from Heaven? Clearly not God if God is one person.

Yes, you ARE adding the Trinity to the Bible since it's not in the Bible therefore your adding to God's word. When he said that he didn't just mean "adding books" but "adding" anything in GENERAL. If it's not in the Bible and your adding it, it's adding to his word. I'm sorry you don't believe that, but it's true.

Evolution in the sense I was talking is the creation of species over generations (meaning over time), I don't know if it talks about that type of Evolution in the Bible but we know it's fact because it's all around us and has happend but the Trinity is totally different and you cannot compare the two.

As for the New International version, it is just as reliable as the King James Version, it is easier to understand because it is in our "terms" to help us better understand it. I have both the New International version and the King James version. I guess I'll have to repeat the verses I gave you only using the King James version, as you can see theres not much of a difference:

Deuteronomy 4:2 (King James version):
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 (King James version):
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Proverbs 30:6 (King James version):
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thu be found a liar.

So, as you can see the verses in both Bibles are VERY clear on what they trying to say.

Now, heres your verses you gave me coming from the King James version:

John 11:41 (King James version):
Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou has heard me.

"He was thanking his spirit for hearing him, afterall he is God in the flesh".

Matthew 3:16-17 (King James version):
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

"God can be in 2 or 3 places at once, you cannot Question his powers because they are not of this world. In this verse he is telling HIS creation how to get to Heaven so that all can be saved."

As I have stated to you many times and even have given you verses proving it, Jesus is God, the Bible clearly states this. Let me give you those verses again only this time in the King James version of the Bible. Here ya go:

John 1:1-5 (King James version):
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

(As you can see the verse states that the Word is God and that he created everything. It also states that he was in fact Jesus by saying "In him was life; and the life was the light of men, Jesus was the light, the light is God").

John 1:10-14 (King James version):
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not, He came unto his own and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

(This verse tells us that the Word=God came to the world in the "flesh" as Jesus..meaning Jesus is God.)

Ps: It's VERY easy to understand. Just read both verses CAREFULLY. And the verses you have given me clearly state NOTHING absolutely NOTHING about the Trinity. I looked up the verses myself.

Oh, my God, you really aren't realizing that the term trinity is not substituted for anything in the Bible. It's just a word that theologians use to describe God's attributes. That's it.

I know what you meant earlier about not adding anything. But, did you even bother to read the passages I showed you?

You really are getting on my nerves because this is either completely going over your head, or you're just down right denying it.

Duet. 6:4 - One God
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

Rom. 1:7 - The Father is God
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Tit. 2:13 - Jesus is God
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

2 Cor. 3:17 - The Holy Spirit is God
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

All three are God.

You can't argue with the Bible. There's no where in the Bible that says that God is one being.

I read them quite well obviously since I listed the same verses you did from the King James version. Exactly my point...if it's not in the Bible and your preaching it as being true, your adding to it. If the trinity were in fact God's word, it would be in the Bible but it isn't. The things you listed yes are very true and I do not deny those but those are not the trinity. As I have said a million times...the trinity believes that God is three "persons" which is why it is false because God is one being and has clearly stated that in the Bible you are just not reading it right.

When the Bible describes God do they say "them" no they don't..they say "Him" therefore there is ONLY one being.

It's called denying it because it's not the word of God, you should be denying it too.

Again, you're wrong. I'm sorry, I just found the verse that disproves that the Bible only refers to God in the singular.

Gen 1:26 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Now, there's absolutely no way you can interpret that differently, because you said that the Bible is clear in its meaning. This verse alone proves that there is a distinct characteristic to our God. He is not only one being, but three personhoods in one.

True. I'll have to answer that one tomorrow since I have to get up early and need sleep and can't think straight. But read verse 27 in that same chapter.

Gen 1:27.
So God created human beings in his own image.
In the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

It is claiming in that verse that there is one being.

So, then the Bible would have a contradiction. But, as you know the Bible doesn't contradict itself because it is the inspired word of God who is infallible.

How can you ignore what I just told you? The Bible clearly states that God said 'Let us make man in our image.' Seriously, if you're going to deny that, then I'm done. You're just too stubborn to even talk to. I'm giving you Biblical scripture that proves God's triune characteristic and you're just denying it. Biblical evidence, none the less. What kind of Christian does that make you if you're denying the Bible? It makes you inconsistent.

If God didn't feel that it was important it wouldn't be in the Bible.

So, it's just up to you to accept the truth.

2 Cor 13.14: May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. [Notice the source of blessing has 'expanded' to a trinitarian source!]

Rom 1.7 (and 2 Cor 1.2, 1 Cor 1.3, Eph 1.2, Phil 1.2): Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (Notice the double source of grace/peace)

Eph 6.23: Peace to the brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Notice: dual source)

2 Cor 1.3-4: Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort (Note: single-source, the Father)

Gal 1.3: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. (Notice: dual-source)

The baptismal "formula"--Mt 28.19: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Notice: this is an explicit statement of three-in-one: it is ONE 'Name', but THREE agents! This linking of the Son with the divine names of God and Holy Spirit is quite a statement!)

Faithful saying -- Tit 3.4-7: But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. (Notice: this saying is VERY trinitarian--with all three agents playing separate roles in the redemptive process--with echoes of John 14-17! Notice also that 'God our Savior' and 'Jesus Christ our Savior' are in this passage together, and that the Holy Spirit is responsible for our renewal.)

Also, as to your argument... Gen. 1:27 is only referring to God in the singular tense. The Bible tends to vary on the plurality and singularity of God. But if it mentions that God a plural being then it must be so. Even if the Bible states that man was created in His image.

I get what your saying and I believe that God is all of those things but all them are part of "him". As I have repeated over & over the Trinity teaches that all 3 are different persons which I do not believe. You are not going to go up to Heaven and see 3 persons on the throne, you will see Jesus and only Jesus. What you believe in IS NOT the trinity if your calling those 3 things Characteristics because the Trinity clearly states 3 PERSONS.

You can bad mouth me all you want, call me stubborn or whatever but in the end you will find out the truth.

This is what I believe:

God is all of those (father, son & holy spirit) but they are NOT persons, God is an entity, he is our father, son is him in the flesh and the holy spirit is his presence.

If you said that when I go up to Heaven all I will see is Jesus. Why wouldn't I see the other two?

First of all... the Trinity is incomprehensibly three personhoods in one God. That's why you see different names all over the Bible. If it was a monad, that wouldn't be so. But considering God's 'multi-personality' is so unique, we have a Trinity.

I'm really not trying to bad mouth you. I'm sorry, I just get excited.

But, we you have evidence for something and some one doesn't believe it, you have to wonder...are you just not believing it because they don't understand, or because they are openly denying it?

I know that if you knew the truth you wouldn't deny it. You don't seem like that kind of person.

So, I agree with you that there is one God. But God can't only be one sided or else we wouldn't have love or relationships, because it would make God inconsistence. His creation would have to sustain Him and that would make Him all less than perfect. So, by having a three sided God who throughout eternity has had a relationship within His three sides it makes creation logical.

Does that make more sense? I believe God is one. But the Trinity is such a mystery that we'll never be able to define it 100 percent correctly.

You are not going to see those because they are not visible to see, they are more like personalities of God. Kinda like me and you we have certain personalities that make us up right? Well so does he, he's the father the creator of all things, Jesus is him in the flesh (but in fact him) and the holy spirit is his presence or spirit/soul. So, why would you see those 2 other things if they are not human but describing a certain part of him? That's why I don't believe in the Trinity, they teach that there are 3 persons that make him and that when you die you will see 3 persons in Heaven which is false. You will only see one Jesus who is in fact God.

No, you see different names all over the Bible because it's describing different parts of "him". the Father is mentioned because he is "our" Father, he created us, The Holy Spirit/Ghost are mentioned because in order to REALLY feel God and to allow him to speak through you you must get the Holy Ghost which is his Spirit. It is not mentioning them as being seperate persons.

I understand your not, I was just tired and getting frustrated because I was trying to explain something to you that was I thought very simple and you weren't understanding me lol.

You see, now don't get me wrong I am not claiming to be a know it all but I do know the Truth and many maybe not on these boards but many other people who are Christian would agree with me on the Trinity and why it's so wrong. If God is 3 different persons, how come most of the time it says: "him" or "he" and not "them"....or when Jesus came down from Heaven...how come not all 3 or at least one of the others come down as persons? Or how come the Bible doesn't specificially talk about them being "persons"?

How is him not having 3 different persons meaning we can't love in relationships? That makes absolutely no sense. We know love cause God is love and since he's all-powerful he can be anywhere he wants to be and be in two or more places at once. God has different Characteristics to him but he isn't 3 different persons as the Trinity teaches. If you look on the internet you will find EVERY site basically say that the Trinity consists of three persons not three Characteristics.

As for the verse you had found last night and this is just a guess but when he said "our" I believe he wasn't talking to 3 persons but himself...the reason he used "our" is because he was talking to his spirit and himself in general and the father which is in him. Because if there are 3 persons I don't think the other verses would say "him" or "he" all over it, it would be "them".

That's the same thing as adding to the Bible. The Bible says nothing about a creation of species over time, or anything close to that... at least in Genesis it doesnt. If it does, I'd love to see a verse.

So you believe the creation of species over time is a fact? Even though its not in the Bible? That IS adding to God's word. So you believe one thing scientists have come up with / discovered, but you dont believe the other half?

EXACTLY. God is one being, but has three personhoods. It's sort of an enigma. You're right about the personalities. Exactly right. That's really what I've been trying to say. Personhoods refers to Him being called Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. That's what the Trinity speaks of.

A man made word [Trinity] refers to exactly that. God's attributes.

Like I've said.

1. God is one being.
2. The Father is God.
3. Jesus is God.
4. The Spirit is God.
5. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinguishable persons [Personalities] but all apart of the same being.

If the Bible mentions the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit it must be true to a Christian.

I really can't tell you why God is referenced in the Bible mostly as He or Him, probably because he is one being with three different personhoods.

But, the fact that God mentions to us firstly that He is plural must be true that there is more than one absolute personality than just The Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit.

As for God speaking to two different people when referencing Gen. 1:26, I don't think that is right, because if God was speaking to angels, which would probably be the case if that were true, we would not be made in the image of God. We would be made in the image of angels.

There's a distinction between angels and humans. Angels don't have free will and humans do. Angels are singular beings and God is triune in the sense that He possesses three different offices and personhoods [personalities].

That's really what I'm trying to say.

One God...three different personhoods [Personalities]. If it was more than one god, then our religion would be categorized wrongly. Christianity is a monotheistic religion.