Forums > Transmigration

Simba

Mar 15 2007, 04:17 PM

The last previous reincarnation thread has grown a little old, and I'd like to see some fresh input on subject.

Some points I'd like to see hit:

Whether reincarnation even exists or not
The who, the what, the how, and the whys of reincarnation
How the idea automatically requires that we are an eternal soul and not the bodies
Karmic reaction
Transmigrating from a human to an animal, and vice versa
When the reincarnation cycle will end
Clinical death and children recalling their pasts
Heaven and Hell and reincarnation
Reincarnation in Christianity and other religions

Though, perhaps not all at once. And that's probably not all of them either, just the ones that I could think of off the top of my head.

sweetangel2128

Mar 15 2007, 04:21 PM

Hmmm, not sure on this topic but you mentioned Chrisitianity and reincarnation so I'll respond with that one. I never really believed in reincarnation even before I was a Christian, I always believed in God. I believe that after you die you go 2 places, Heaven or Hell, nowhere else...yes demons are on earth and so are certain angels, but really after you die, theres only 2 places you could go.

Simba

Mar 15 2007, 04:57 PM

QUOTE(Heath21 @ Mar 15 2007, 5:21 PM)

Hmmm, not sure on this topic but you mentioned Chrisitianity and reincarnation so I'll respond with that one. I never really believed in reincarnation even before I was a Christian, I always believed in God. I believe that after you die you go 2 places, Heaven or Hell, nowhere else...yes demons are on earth and so are certain angels, but really after you die, theres only 2 places you could go.

Well, since you're Christian, I'm assuming you follow the Bible.

Reincarnation in the Bible:
Jesus asks:

"Who do the people say I am?" They, answering, said "John the Baptist; but some say Elias, and others say that one of the old prophets is risen again."
-- Luke 9:18-19

This is saying that Jesus could have been existent as another person during another time. Possible through reincarnation, of course.

Jesus also directly mentions reincarnation when he tells John the Baptist that he was a reincarnation of Elias:

And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Elias truly shall first come and restore all things. But first I say unto you that Elias has come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they wanted. Likewise shall also the son of man suffer of them." Then the disciples understood that he spoke unto them of John the Baptist.
-- Matthew 17:11-13

This would be Jesus saying that John the Baptist was the same person who once appeared as Elias, but this time appearing with a different name and a different body.

Thus, reincarnation was accepted by even Jesus.

Kontroll

Mar 15 2007, 06:15 PM

The idea is sort of practical in a scientific sense.

First we need to establish that we have a soul.
In order for reincarnation to be possible we need a soul.

So, saying that, I think it is possible. Scientifically when our bodies die, our energy continues because energy doesn't die. So, our energy must be our soul if it continues on.

An interesting fact is that when you have certain molecules and atoms...they can be re aligned in a way where you can pass through a solid object. I'm not quite sure what the principle is called, but I heard from a few people.

Jesus appeared to a couple of his disciples and they said that he didn't enter through the door, but he was flesh. He was in human for still, not as a spirit. How could this have happened? Through passing through the wall by re aligning the molecules in his body.

So, I really don't think that its impossible for reincarnation.

Also, if you believe in demonic possession, that clearly leaves a door open for this to happen.

Haha, I personally don't believe in it because the Bible says that we only get one chance on earth. Then we either go to Heaven or Hell.

But, it's a good topic. Such a simple question can make you think more than you could with something much harder.

QUOTE(Arjuna Capulong @ Mar 15 2007, 5:57 PM)

Well, since you're Christian, I'm assuming you follow the Bible.

Reincarnation in the Bible:
Jesus asks:

"Who do the people say I am?" They, answering, said "John the Baptist; but some say Elias, and others say that one of the old prophets is risen again."
-- Luke 9:18-19

This is saying that Jesus could have been existent as another person during another time. Possible through reincarnation, of course.
Jesus also directly mentions reincarnation when he tells John the Baptist that he was a reincarnation of Elias:

And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Elias truly shall first come and restore all things. But first I say unto you that Elias has come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they wanted. Likewise shall also the son of man suffer of them." Then the disciples understood that he spoke unto them of John the Baptist.
-- Matthew 17:11-13

This would be Jesus saying that John the Baptist was the same person who once appeared as Elias, but this time appearing with a different name and a different body.

Thus, reincarnation was accepted by even Jesus.

How do you know that the first verse doesn't imply confusion? All he's doing is asking them who he thinks he is. They reply with a few different names. That's all. I don't see reincarnation in there what so ever.

The second verse is talking about a man named Elias. Jesus is saying that He will face the same suffering as he did. And the disciples heard the words and associated them with the teachings of John the Baptist.

That's what I get out of that. Nothing about reincarnation. If I'm wrong, fill me in...please. I hate being ignorant.

Simba

Mar 15 2007, 07:22 PM

QUOTE(JakeKKing @ Mar 15 2007, 7:15 PM)

How do you know that the first verse doesn't imply confusion? All he's doing is asking them who he thinks he is. They reply with a few different names. That's all. I don't see reincarnation in there what so ever.

The second verse is talking about a man named Elias. Jesus is saying that He will face the same suffering as he did. And the disciples heard the words and associated them with the teachings of John the Baptist.

That's what I get out of that. Nothing about reincarnation. If I'm wrong, fill me in...please. I hate being ignorant.

Well, I guess it can be arguable whether John was only similar to Elias or he actually is Elias, but here are some more Bible verses that I've read, that might clear that up a bit.

And if you will receive it, he is Elias that is to come.
-- Matthew 11:14

And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
-- Luke 1:17

And since with reincarnation, an individual is an eternal spirit/soul, John being the spirit known as Elias is possible.

Kontroll

Mar 15 2007, 11:03 PM

QUOTE(Arjuna Capulong @ Mar 15 2007, 8:22 PM)

Well, I guess it can be arguable whether John was only similar to Elias or he actually is Elias, but here are some more Bible verses that I've read, that might clear that up a bit.

And if you will receive it, he is Elias that is to come.
-- Matthew 11:14

And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
-- Luke 1:17

And since with reincarnation, an individual is an eternal spirit/soul, John being the spirit known as Elias is possible.

Indeed.

Oh, I just found an interesting article. Enjoy.

QUOTE

A scientific rebuttal to reincarnation

The concept of reincarnation is widely accepted among non-Christians, probably because it appeals to many who would like to believe that they would be given a second chance in case they failed to make the grade in this life. Christianity disputes reincarnation because it is unnecessary, since anybody can "make the grade" simply through an act of their own will through faith in Jesus Christ. The scientific rebuttal to reincarnation is quite simple. Because of the population explosion, more people are currently living on the earth than have ever lived on the earth for the entire history of humankind. In other words, over half of the people who have ever lived on earth have never died even once! There simply are not enough dead souls to go around for a second time. This does not absolutely eliminate reincarnation, but it does severely restrict its extent, especially for those who have claimed to have lived several times before. However, some people believe that souls can be reincarnated into or from animals. In that case, it is possible that many people have been frogs before they became princes.

Bible against Reincarnation
- - -
And in as much as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27)

So, what I have to say to you is that before reading the verse and submitting as possible evidence...look at it closer. The Bible is filled with things that aren't always so obvious. You have to look at the original translations alot of the times to understand the actual meaning of what that verse is saying. Also, another thing is to not take it out of context. This verse might not be, but it would be a good idea to bring in other verses before or after if they tie in with that specific one.

Here's the site I got this from. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/reincarnation.html

sweetangel2128

Mar 16 2007, 02:36 AM

QUOTE(Arjuna Capulong @ Mar 15 2007, 2:57 PM)

Well, since you're Christian, I'm assuming you follow the Bible.

Reincarnation in the Bible:
Jesus asks:

"Who do the people say I am?" They, answering, said "John the Baptist; but some say Elias, and others say that one of the old prophets is risen again."
-- Luke 9:18-19

This is saying that Jesus could have been existent as another person during another time. Possible through reincarnation, of course.
Jesus also directly mentions reincarnation when he tells John the Baptist that he was a reincarnation of Elias:

And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Elias truly shall first come and restore all things. But first I say unto you that Elias has come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they wanted. Likewise shall also the son of man suffer of them." Then the disciples understood that he spoke unto them of John the Baptist.
-- Matthew 17:11-13

This would be Jesus saying that John the Baptist was the same person who once appeared as Elias, but this time appearing with a different name and a different body.

Thus, reincarnation was accepted by even Jesus.

No, that is not reincarnation.

Kontroll

Mar 16 2007, 12:06 PM

QUOTE(Heath21 @ Mar 16 2007, 3:36 AM)

No, that is not reincarnation.

Why is it not reincarnation? Back up your answers. Seriously. It's a debate forum.

sweetangel2128

Mar 16 2007, 03:27 PM

QUOTE(JakeKKing @ Mar 16 2007, 10:06 AM)

Why is it not reincarnation? Back up your answers. Seriously. It's a debate forum.

It may look like reincarnation to an unbeliever, but to a believer it isn't because Jesus is in fact God in the flesh, it's not reincarnation. When I think of recincarnation I think of someone dying and then coming back as a bird or something. God never died.

Kontroll

Mar 16 2007, 04:55 PM

QUOTE(Heath21 @ Mar 16 2007, 4:27 PM)

It may look like reincarnation to an unbeliever, but to a believer it isn't because Jesus is in fact God in the flesh, it's not reincarnation. When I think of recincarnation I think of someone dying and then coming back as a bird or something. God never died.

I was making a point about Jesus. Don't take everything so literally.

What I said about Jesus wasn't suppost to be about Him. It was about science and how He passed through a wall.

Got it? Hopefully.

Simba

Mar 16 2007, 05:02 PM

QUOTE(JakeKKing @ Mar 16 2007, 12:03 AM)

Indeed.

Oh, I just found an interesting article. Enjoy.
Bible against Reincarnation
- - -
And in as much as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27)

So, what I have to say to you is that before reading the verse and submitting as possible evidence...look at it closer. The Bible is filled with things that aren't always so obvious. You have to look at the original translations alot of the times to understand the actual meaning of what that verse is saying. Also, another thing is to not take it out of context. This verse might not be, but it would be a good idea to bring in other verses before or after if they tie in with that specific one.

Here's the site I got this from. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/reincarnation.html

Righto. Well, don't get me wrong, it's not like I haven't looked at Bible verses that actually go against reincarnation as well. Reincarnation in the actual Bible is definitely open for debate. Hebrews 9:27 particularly I have read before, though one who would be for reincarnation would simply dismiss that verse because of the debate over the authorship of the book of Hebrews.

I, myself, however would still not say that single verse eliminates reincarnation from the Bible since it is talking about man and in reincarnation, an individual being is not a man but an eternal soul. As for the judgment bit, well, how about that karma, eh.

Here's a list of verses that are for reincarnation:

John 9:2
Jeremiah 1:4–5
Matthew 5:25–26
Matthew 11:14–15
Matthew 11:25–26
Matthew 17:11–13
Matthew 26:52
Mark 9:11–13
Luke 1:17
John 3:1–10
John 9:1–3
Galatians 6:7

And verses that are against reincarnation (or karma):

Hebrews 9:27
Luke 13
Psalm 78:39
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 &10

Those are the most common verses I've seen when discussion reincarnation in the Bible, so if you want to talk about Bible verses, those would be the ones to hit.

Ultimately, however, it is clear that the authors of the Bible had no real intentions of teaching about reincarnation. Nor do we even know for sure that the Bible is inerrant, or even complete. Because wasn't it that during the compilation of the Bible, the people chose what to include and what not to include? And what about those many years of Christ that were left out of the Bible. (Yeah, I have read that verse where it says that that would make the Bible extremely long.)

It could have been that people just picked and chose what they wanted to be taught from the Bible. Though, reincarnation actually was indeed taught in Christianity by Origen, known as one of the Fathers of the early Christian church. Though, I heard that Origen was then cursed by the church and no one was ever to read his books "or else they would go to hell."

QUOTE(Heath21 @ Mar 16 2007, 4:27 PM)

It may look like reincarnation to an unbeliever, but to a believer it isn't because Jesus is in fact God in the flesh, it's not reincarnation. When I think of recincarnation I think of someone dying and then coming back as a bird or something. God never died.

The verses I mentioned were talking about John the Baptist being Elias reincarnated, not Jesus.

Jesus is an incarnation of God, sure.

Kim3rz

Mar 19 2007, 01:22 PM

QUOTE(Arjuna Capulong @ Mar 16 2007, 3:02 PM)

Here's a list of verses that are for reincarnation:

John 9:2
Jeremiah 1:4–5
Matthew 5:25–26
Matthew 11:14–15
Matthew 11:25–26
Matthew 17:11–13
Matthew 26:52
Mark 9:11–13
Luke 1:17
John 3:1–10
John 9:1–3
Galatians 6:7

And verses that are against reincarnation (or karma):

Hebrews 9:27
Luke 13
Psalm 78:39
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 &10

Those are the most common verses I've seen when discussion reincarnation in the Bible, so if you want to talk about Bible verses, those would be the ones to hit.

Ultimately, however, it is clear that the authors of the Bible had no real intentions of teaching about reincarnation. Nor do we even know for sure that the Bible is inerrant, or even complete. Because wasn't it that during the compilation of the Bible, the people chose what to include and what not to include? And what about those many years of Christ that were left out of the Bible. (Yeah, I have read that verse where it says that that would make the Bible extremely long.)

It could have been that people just picked and chose what they wanted to be taught from the Bible. Though, reincarnation actually was indeed taught in Christianity by Origen, known as one of the Fathers of the early Christian church. Though, I heard that Origen was then cursed by the church and no one was ever to read his books "or else they would go to hell."
The verses I mentioned were talking about John the Baptist being Elias reincarnated, not Jesus.

Jesus is an incarnation of God, sure.

So. . . in a way, is the Bible being contradictory with itself? Because I think if I were to read something about reincarnation being possible in the Bible and then it turns around and says that it isn't, that's a little confusing isn't it?

Especially for people who want to believe that reincarnation is possible, so which statements in the Bible are they to believe?

I mean, obviously there can't be a gray area; either there's such thing as reincarnation or not.

Simba

Mar 19 2007, 03:12 PM

QUOTE(Carpe_Diem @ Mar 19 2007, 2:22 PM)

So. . . in a way, is the Bible being contradictory with itself? Because I think if I were to read something about reincarnation being possible in the Bible and then it turns around and says that it isn't, that's a little confusing isn't it?

Especially for people who want to believe that reincarnation is possible, so which statements in the Bible are they to believe?

I mean, obviously there can't be a gray area; either there's such thing as reincarnation or not.

Well, this is when Bible interpretation and Bible inerrancy is concerned.

The Bible is at least not directly contradicting itself since the Bible can be interpreted in different ways. Obviously, a person who's looking to find reincarnation in the Bible and a person who looking for contradictions of reincarnation in the Bible are going to interpret the verses differently.

As for Bible inerrancy, it is also possible that someone just plain didn't want reincarnation being taught from the Bible. Reincarnation was in fact once taught by one of the fathers of Christianity, Origen...

Regarding reincarnation in Christianity, a Catholic priest once said that that reincarnation was removed from Christian teachings because, at the time, it was feared that people might start getting the wrong idea that the material world was created for our enjoyment, and that people would discontinue serious religious practices. Which, sure, made sense at the time.

And ultimately, for people who want to know if reincarnation is possible and how it works, the Bible would clearly not be reliable for this. However, in other scriptures (more or less reliable than the Bible), this "gray area" is eliminated.

Joss-eh-lime

Mar 21 2007, 07:24 PM

QUOTE(Arjuna Capulong @ Mar 15 2007, 1:57 PM)

Well, since you're Christian, I'm assuming you follow the Bible.

Reincarnation in the Bible:
Jesus asks:

"Who do the people say I am?" They, answering, said "John the Baptist; but some say Elias, and others say that one of the old prophets is risen again."
-- Luke 9:18-19

This is saying that Jesus could have been existent as another person during another time. Possible through reincarnation, of course.
Jesus also directly mentions reincarnation when he tells John the Baptist that he was a reincarnation of Elias:

And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Elias truly shall first come and restore all things. But first I say unto you that Elias has come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they wanted. Likewise shall also the son of man suffer of them." Then the disciples understood that he spoke unto them of John the Baptist.
-- Matthew 17:11-13

This would be Jesus saying that John the Baptist was the same person who once appeared as Elias, but this time appearing with a different name and a different body.

Thus, reincarnation was accepted by even Jesus.

no. he makes no refrence to reincarnation. he's challenging the people to understand who he his

Simba

Mar 21 2007, 07:36 PM

QUOTE(one_and_only @ Mar 21 2007, 8:24 PM)

no. he makes no refrence to reincarnation. he's challenging the people to understand who he his

I would rebut, but we've already discussed that about those verses.

Kontroll

Mar 23 2007, 06:07 PM

QUOTE(Arjuna Capulong @ Mar 16 2007, 6:02 PM)

Righto. Well, don't get me wrong, it's not like I haven't looked at Bible verses that actually go against reincarnation as well. Reincarnation in the actual Bible is definitely open for debate. Hebrews 9:27 particularly I have read before, though one who would be for reincarnation would simply dismiss that verse because of the debate over the authorship of the book of Hebrews.

I, myself, however would still not say that single verse eliminates reincarnation from the Bible since it is talking about man and in reincarnation, an individual being is not a man but an eternal soul. As for the judgment bit, well, how about that karma, eh.

Here's a list of verses that are for reincarnation:

John 9:2
Jeremiah 1:4–5
Matthew 5:25–26
Matthew 11:14–15
Matthew 11:25–26
Matthew 17:11–13
Matthew 26:52
Mark 9:11–13
Luke 1:17
John 3:1–10
John 9:1–3
Galatians 6:7

And verses that are against reincarnation (or karma):

Hebrews 9:27
Luke 13
Psalm 78:39
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 &10

Those are the most common verses I've seen when discussion reincarnation in the Bible, so if you want to talk about Bible verses, those would be the ones to hit.

Ultimately, however, it is clear that the authors of the Bible had no real intentions of teaching about reincarnation. Nor do we even know for sure that the Bible is inerrant, or even complete. Because wasn't it that during the compilation of the Bible, the people chose what to include and what not to include? And what about those many years of Christ that were left out of the Bible. (Yeah, I have read that verse where it says that that would make the Bible extremely long.)

It could have been that people just picked and chose what they wanted to be taught from the Bible. Though, reincarnation actually was indeed taught in Christianity by Origen, known as one of the Fathers of the early Christian church. Though, I heard that Origen was then cursed by the church and no one was ever to read his books "or else they would go to hell."
The verses I mentioned were talking about John the Baptist being Elias reincarnated, not Jesus.

Jesus is an incarnation of God, sure.

I totally agree with what you're saying. Firstly, when studying the Bible, it's always essential to look at the Greek or Hebrew instead of just going off the English translations.

I found out that Jesus might not have been a carpenter. All the Bible says that He was raised a carpenter's son... The Greek translation for what Jesus was, was 'Teknon.' which translates into servant, or hand worker. So, He really could have been anything. So, it's essential to look back to the original translations.

As for the compilation of the Bible... I being a Christian, though not strongly, find it easy to go along with the Bible. Those books were written hundreds of years after Jesus was alive. Such as the book of Mary Magdalene.

I view the Bible as infallible. If there is something in the Bible, it must be important. If there is something that wasn't mentioned, it's either for us to figure out, or not important.

Catching my drift?

But that question has been in my head ever since Dan Brown brought it up.

Haha, knowing God, reincarnation isn't impossible. But, I just find it improbible that God would contradict His word. But, it's always interesting to bring these questions up. I definitely will at my next Bible study...if I'm still here.

QUOTE(Carpe_Diem @ Mar 19 2007, 2:22 PM)

So. . . in a way, is the Bible being contradictory with itself? Because I think if I were to read something about reincarnation being possible in the Bible and then it turns around and says that it isn't, that's a little confusing isn't it?

Especially for people who want to believe that reincarnation is possible, so which statements in the Bible are they to believe?

I mean, obviously there can't be a gray area; either there's such thing as reincarnation or not.

The Bible is filled with that kind of thing, but when you read things in context, it isn't contradictory. It's hard to understand and I've dealt with that too, but you just need some one to show you. It's hard to understand the Bible sometimes when you're just reading it as it stands.

It's better if you understand the culture, and what the verses actually mean. Because it's not like it was written in our time. So, things have definitely changed.

sweetangel2128

Mar 24 2007, 05:15 PM

QUOTE(JakeKKing @ Mar 23 2007, 4:07 PM)

But, I just find it improbible that God would contradict His word.

Why would he? Good point :) I mean it's kinda like a mom or dad saying - "This is true, but no it's not"...it confuses the child, God is the same way, it's highly unlikely he'd do that. A lot of people find the Bible contradicting and I, myself used to be one of those people but I don't think that way anymore after actually studying some of the scriptures.

Simba

Mar 26 2007, 08:30 PM

God =/= Bible (Basically, even if the Bible contradicted itself, it would not necessarily mean that God was contradicting Himself.)

So what if the Bible was tainted? What if there were more authoritative, accurate scriptures that are not the Bible?

sweetangel2128

Mar 27 2007, 10:26 PM

QUOTE(Arjuna Capulong @ Mar 26 2007, 6:30 PM)

God =/= Bible (Basically, even if the Bible contradicted itself, it would not necessarily mean that God was contradicting Himself.)

So what if the Bible was tainted? What if there were more authoritative, accurate scriptures that are not the Bible?

If the Bible contradicted itself it would mean that God is contradicting himself because the Bible is suppose to be God's Word unless of course someone screwed up the original scriptures and changed them around to where they contradict and it wasn't God's Word but that hasn't really happend so we can't really say anything about that.

Simba

Mar 28 2007, 04:25 PM

^ Well, wasn't it a bunch of humans that ultimately arranged the Bible?

sweetangel2128

Mar 28 2007, 11:43 PM

QUOTE(Arjuna Capulong @ Mar 28 2007, 2:25 PM)

^ Well, wasn't it a bunch of humans that ultimately arranged the Bible?

Jesus followers/decipels yes who were inspired by God but a lot of the stuff in the Bible was God's Word but of course God couldn't of wrote so the people who knew him and witnessed him wrote about him.

Simba

Apr 2 2007, 01:07 AM

QUOTE(Heath21 @ Mar 29 2007, 12:43 AM)

Jesus followers/decipels yes who were inspired by God but a lot of the stuff in the Bible was God's Word but of course God couldn't of wrote so the people who knew him and witnessed him wrote about him.

So, a lot of it was not literally God's word (as in talking), which makes it a bunch of notes of events taken by people? Or was was this a direct dialogue?

xBUTTMUNCHx

Apr 5 2007, 07:27 PM

Reincarnation, is in the Hindu religion...
ummm my parents sometimes says that I was my fathers mom...
idk why? maybe me and gram had the same habits.?.?.?
Then they would say that my cousin was my moms mom.
bc she had the same habits and additude like gram...

yeah its weird...our culture believes in the abnormal.
but like what they say, "even if you don't believe in something doesn't mean you have to doubt, and disrepect it.

but I do believe it. cause its been a part of me since I can remember. (:

sweetangel2128

Apr 6 2007, 11:02 PM

QUOTE(Arjuna Capulong @ Apr 1 2007, 11:07 PM)

So, a lot of it was not literally God's word (as in talking), which makes it a bunch of notes of events taken by people? Or was was this a direct dialogue?

Well, if you have ever seen a church bible King James version a lot of the writing is in red..the red means that Jesus spoke those very words and anything that was not in red was spoken by the deciples or whatever. God did speak a lot of what is in the Bible but a HUGE portion was spoken by people who witnessed him and saw his works.