Full Version: God is the worst murderer yet you love him.
What is the balance between? What cancels eachother out?
^Hrm, that's like asking what the balance would be on the hospital pain scale. 10 would be extreme pain and 1 would be euphoria, I would guess 5 would be somewhere around contentment.
Our world is content? Not exactly how I'd label it...
And I still don't see what this "balance" is in the world; what is it between? Good/bad? Happy/sad? Ground/water?
And I still don't see what this "balance" is in the world; what is it between? Good/bad? Happy/sad? Ground/water?
I'm mostly talking about nature. No, the world isn't content, but there is a balance between "good" and "bad" so that the world, as a whole, goes on. I'd rather focus more on the natural pattern, but I'm trying to explain that I see a balance in the world that keeps it running.
QUOTE
5) Everywhere are signs of dynamic balance : You only need to take a look at the sky and you see stars are blinking with a symmetry of lights. That's why they are called stars. On earth the snow flake are dynamic symmetries too. Mature galaxies have two pole and two sleeves to balance their swirling dance. The Moon is balanced in orbit around you and me with the prettiest face looking at us. Animals and humans are given balanced limbs and corporal structures. Mother Nature loves beautiful jewels (see above figs). Wherever there are transmissible energies in propagating quanta, there a dynamic balance is in the making. The spherical shape of all cosmic bodies tells us that everywhere in the universe the spatial realm is filled with energies that make them round. This synchronized environment of energy must extend far far beyond our observable limits of the universe. The universe is nothing but a grand concerted motion with masses and energies forever interchanging. Yet, in changing everything obeys the laws of symmetry and dynamic equilibrium. Therefore the changes are recyclable.
Stars are symmetrical?
Perhaps galaxies have two poles so there's not a charge and they don't feel that they need to get rid of electrons? All charged particles and molecules attempt to achieve neutrality.
Perhaps animals are symmetrical because, if they weren't, they wouldn't be able to stand upright and would only crawl, and crawling is not advantageous for an animal that has the ability to adapt to a more advantageous form?
Planets and other spatial objects are probably spherical because they have cores and layers that pull the matter surrounding the core to the center. When planets formed, things pulled together, and a sphere is what was achieved because that is the way that all the matter could be most closely packed.
Everything that you say has a balance and can only have a balance due to a creator has a simple scientific explanations characteristic of all matter of that type. I am still failing to see that, because these scientific things happen, something must have made them.
Perhaps galaxies have two poles so there's not a charge and they don't feel that they need to get rid of electrons? All charged particles and molecules attempt to achieve neutrality.
Perhaps animals are symmetrical because, if they weren't, they wouldn't be able to stand upright and would only crawl, and crawling is not advantageous for an animal that has the ability to adapt to a more advantageous form?
Planets and other spatial objects are probably spherical because they have cores and layers that pull the matter surrounding the core to the center. When planets formed, things pulled together, and a sphere is what was achieved because that is the way that all the matter could be most closely packed.
Everything that you say has a balance and can only have a balance due to a creator has a simple scientific explanations characteristic of all matter of that type. I am still failing to see that, because these scientific things happen, something must have made them.
QUOTE(Retrogressive @ Feb 14 2007, 5:29 PM) 
I'm mostly talking about nature. No, the world isn't content, but there is a balance between "good" and "bad" so that the world, as a whole, goes on. I'd rather focus more on the natural pattern, but I'm trying to explain that I see a balance in the world that keeps it running.
I agree, if there was no balance and lets say just good things in the world, good people things would be hectic and kaos would definitly happen. Why? Because we wouldn't learn from right and wrong and there would be no wrongs...plus it would be pretty boring.
QUOTE(sofakinglazy @ Jan 29 2007, 01:36 AM)
Dang, God is more raw than Chuck Norris.
Oh, haha. That's good.
And I don't know why. It all seems very bizarre to me too.
Was it not George Carlin who said "More people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason" ?
- James.
so God killed all these people, these horrible people who deserved to die, what a fukin tradgedy. Also, he gave them a life to live in the first place, they never had to exist, i think that's insanely generous.
How many of you would still love your mother and father if they've killed someone?
QUOTE(Amechi @ May 30 2007, 02:23 PM)
so God killed all these people, these horrible people who deserved to die, what a fukin tradgedy. Also, he gave them a life to live in the first place, they never had to exist, i hink that's insanely generous.
I think almost anyone would rather not live at all, than to be given life just to end up suffering in the end. How is God giving a person life to begin with really that generous? For alot people, life is just a never ending struggle.
QUOTE
How many of you would still love your mother and father if they've killed someone?
Well, if one of my parents brutally murdered someone for no reason, I would imagine I'd hate them for it. I would love them for who they used to be, but not for what they became to be.
first of all, if life is an endless struggle shouldn't you have killed yourself by now, or those who you're reffering to, they can just cease to exist if they so choose, problem solved.
secondly, there was a reason behind God killing all those people so your point sux.
secondly, there was a reason behind God killing all those people so your point sux.
QUOTE(Amechi @ May 30 2007, 04:16 PM)
secondly, there was a reason behind God killing all those people so your point sux.
Did it have anything to do with omni-benevolence?
I think God gave us life with hope for us to be a better person, unfrotunately we don't always choose the right things. idk but I believe we all struggle cause we choose to struggle without exactly realizing it, but then again thats my opinion.
QUOTE(Amechi @ May 30 2007, 05:16 PM)
first of all, if life is an endless struggle shouldn't you have killed yourself by now, or those who you're reffering to, they can just cease to exist if they so choose, problem solved.
secondly, there was a reason behind God killing all those people so your point sux.
secondly, there was a reason behind God killing all those people so your point sux.
Uh okay... I never said everyones life is like that. Mine surely isnt.
But back in biblical times, the people that "God killed" - what did they have to live for? Huh? I surely cant think of anything. And even today... do the happy times in life outweight the bad ones? Yeah, there are plenty of things in our lives today that make it worth it... but then for some people there arent. If I knew that one day I was going to be brutally murdered - I would rather not have been born than to go through something like that. But oh well, that's just me. 
Ok.
Well after I read that I sorta understood it.
Butt if you are a believer of God you wont debate with his actions.
This is just my opinion
Well after I read that I sorta understood it.
Butt if you are a believer of God you wont debate with his actions.
This is just my opinion
^ You mean believer in the God the Bible describes? I believe in God, but I surely dont believe in what the Bible says, about anything.
Mothers kill their children all the time claiming that God told them to. I think the stories in the Bible about God commanding people to go into cities to kill and rape people is the same kind of thing. They either *thought* God told them to do that, or they're just made up stories.
Mothers kill their children all the time claiming that God told them to. I think the stories in the Bible about God commanding people to go into cities to kill and rape people is the same kind of thing. They either *thought* God told them to do that, or they're just made up stories.
QUOTE(kimmytree @ Jun 1 2007, 06:40 PM)
Uh okay... I never said everyones life is like that. Mine surely isnt. But back in biblical times, the people that "God killed" - what did they have to live for? Huh? I surely cant think of anything. And even today... do the happy times in life outweight the bad ones? Yeah, there are plenty of things in our lives today that make it worth it... but then for some people there arent. If I knew that one day I was going to be brutally murdered - I would rather not have been born than to go through something like that. But oh well, that's just me.
But back in biblical times, the people that "God killed" - what did they have to live for? Huh? I surely cant think of anything. And even today... do the happy times in life outweight the bad ones? Yeah, there are plenty of things in our lives today that make it worth it... but then for some people there arent. If I knew that one day I was going to be brutally murdered - I would rather not have been born than to go through something like that. But oh well, that's just me. i never said everyone was like that either (reffering to individuals who believe their life is an endless struggle?) Now about the people that God killed, i'd say they lived for the sake of living, they weren't destined to die but when judgment came upon them that was that. (perhaps when Jesus defeated death he brought them all up to heaven with him, idk). And lastly, if i knew i was going to be brutally murdered i wouldnt give up all the years of my life cuz of one horrible f**king day, lmao that makes no sense. That'd be a sissy thing to do.
QUOTE(kimmytree @ Jun 1 2007, 09:29 PM)
^ You mean believer in the God the Bible describes? I believe in God, but I surely dont believe in what the Bible says, about anything.
Mothers kill their children all the time claiming that God told them to. I think the stories in the Bible about God commanding people to go into cities to kill and rape people is the same kind of thing. They either *thought* God told them to do that, or they're just made up stories.
Mothers kill their children all the time claiming that God told them to. I think the stories in the Bible about God commanding people to go into cities to kill and rape people is the same kind of thing. They either *thought* God told them to do that, or they're just made up stories.
so they're insane. how does that have any bearing on god? the bible tells no one to do any of that. give me some verses that tell "people to go into cities to kill and rape people" without a good reason.
QUOTE(Anubis_Birth @ Jan 29 2007, 09:27 AM)
So your parents can kill you if you don't obey them is what you just said. I mean after all they did created your pathetic little body. Now please don't post in my topic if you are going to be idiotic.
Another thing you don't understand is this isn't about if god exist or NOT, it's about how people worship this sick freak that killed many JUST FOR NOT KISSING HIS ASS.
Let me ask, If god came down right now and said kill a new born baby would you? YES or NO
BTW sorry mods but I can't respect people who basically worship Hitler.
Another thing you don't understand is this isn't about if god exist or NOT, it's about how people worship this sick freak that killed many JUST FOR NOT KISSING HIS ASS.
Let me ask, If god came down right now and said kill a new born baby would you? YES or NO
BTW sorry mods but I can't respect people who basically worship Hitler.
It's hardly fair, and quite frankly pathetic to compare God to Hitler.
Hitler not only killed, but SLAUGHTERED innocent jews.
God killed vain, wicked, hanus men- who killed innocent
people and ostricized, and opressed His people.
Essentially, before the days where Christ saved us from
God's judgement and wrath, God killed the Hitler's of
this world! THANK YOU GOD.
QUOTE(hazardous @ Jun 2 2007, 08:14 PM)
so they're insane. how does that have any bearing on god? the bible tells no one to do any of that. give me some verses that tell "people to go into cities to kill and rape people" without a good reason.
So if they really were insane, then that would mean that God had nothing to do with any of it. I'm not trying to say that God tells us to do anything like that - but many verses claim that God told men to go into cities and kill everyone... including women and children. What could the innocent women and children have done to deserve that? There is also a story of God commanding men to go into a city and kill everyone except the virgins, to rape and take as wives. So whatever. Even if some of the men in the cities the Bible talks about did do something that was deserving of death - why would God punish the ones who were innocent? Good luck explaining that one.
QUOTE(kimmytree @ Jun 2 2007, 08:48 PM)
So if they really were insane, then that would mean that God had nothing to do with any of it. I'm not trying to say that God tells us to do anything like that - but many verses claim that God told men to go into cities and kill everyone... including women and children. What could the innocent women and children have done to deserve that? There is also a story of God commanding men to go into a city and kill everyone except the virgins, to rape and take as wives. So whatever. Even if some of the men in the cities the Bible talks about did do something that was deserving of death - why would God punish the ones who were innocent? Good luck explaining that one.
verses please?
for all you satanic god haters why don't you just kill yourself and join satan's undead legion and prepare for the apacolypse... just a thought. did i spell apacolypse right?
hm. i'm still wondering about those verses as well.
QUOTE(hazardous @ Jun 3 2007, 10:40 AM)
hm. i'm still wondering about those verses as well.
Well give me time, my goodness.
I dont feel like typing all of these out, so you'll have to look them up for yourself.
- Numbers 37:17-18 -- God instructs them to kill every male, and every woman who is not a virgin. Then it goes on and says for them to keep the virgins as their own.
- Judges 21:10-24 -- God sends men to kill everyone in a town/village, except for the virgins. Then since there isnt enough of them for all the men, it tells them to go into another city and hide in the vineyards... and then when the women come out, to jump out and take them as wives.
- Isaiah 13:15-18 -- the murdering of children and women being raped.
And the list goes on.
all of those are in the old testament.
edit:
- Numbers 37:17-18:uhm.numbers only goes to 36.
- Judges 21:10-24:this isn't god doing it, it's the people.
- Isaiah 13:15-18:this is telling what is going to happen.have you ever heard of the rapture?
QUOTE
The Old Testament chronicles the lives of Jews and others who lived before Jesus, who had been promised a savior by God, and were waiting for him. This text contains many stories about people demonstrating faith in God and also provides historical information about the era. The New Testament is unique to Christianity, for it centers around the figure of Jesus and his effect on the world. Christians believe that Jesus is the one that the Old Testament foretold, so instead of looking for a savior, they await the return of Jesus so that he can take them to his kingdom, or heaven.
edit:
- Numbers 37:17-18:uhm.numbers only goes to 36.
- Judges 21:10-24:this isn't god doing it, it's the people.
- Isaiah 13:15-18:this is telling what is going to happen.have you ever heard of the rapture?
QUOTE(Amechi @ May 30 2007, 10:16 PM)
secondly, there was a reason behind God killing all those people so your point sux.
No doubt there was a reason. Every time someone is killed, there is a reason for it. Jealousy, hate, they find it fun.. You name it.
Does that mean as long as we have a reason it's okay?
- James.
QUOTE(Jamwllms @ Jun 4 2007, 09:52 AM)
No doubt there was a reason. Every time someone is killed, there is a reason for it. Jealousy, hate, they find it fun.. You name it.
Does that mean as long as we have a reason it's okay?
- James.
Does that mean as long as we have a reason it's okay?
- James.
they said reasoning behind god killing those people. what you are explaining is people's reasoning for murder. and it's not the same. they don't even begin to equal up.
QUOTE(hazardous @ Jun 3 2007, 07:15 PM)
all of those are in the old testament.
edit:
- Numbers 37:17-18:uhm.numbers only goes to 36.
- Judges 21:10-24:this isn't god doing it, it's the people.
- Isaiah 13:15-18:this is telling what is going to happen.have you ever heard of the rapture?
edit:
- Numbers 37:17-18:uhm.numbers only goes to 36.
- Judges 21:10-24:this isn't god doing it, it's the people.
- Isaiah 13:15-18:this is telling what is going to happen.have you ever heard of the rapture?
Wtf? So you're trying to say that the Old Testament doesnt matter? I've heard preachers preach on the Old Testament tons of times.
What... no 37? I must have made a typo. Let me check.
Doesnt matter. So during the rapture then, God is going to allow children to be murdered and women to be raped? Just for not being saved?
That makes it sound even worse.I'm really busy right now, but I'll reply later with explanations/more references.
QUOTE(kimmytree @ Jun 4 2007, 11:01 AM)
Wtf? So you're trying to say that the Old Testament doesnt matter? I've heard preachers preach on the Old Testament tons of times.
What... no 37? I must have made a typo. Let me check. I'm really busy right now, but I'll reply later with explanations/more references.
What... no 37? I must have made a typo. Let me check. I'm really busy right now, but I'll reply later with explanations/more references.
nope. just that it doesn't apply to everyday life as now. that's why there's a new testament.
plus, i explained them afterwards.
hah. it's fine. i'm pretty busy myself.
suicide time is at 3 am tonight if you guys wanna go bring the war to God in the next life, see you there!
QUOTE(Amechi @ Jun 4 2007, 03:26 PM)
suicide time is at 3 am tonight if you guys wanna go bring the war to God in the next life, see you there!
what?
QUOTE
Doesnt matter. So during the rapture then, God is going to allow children to be murdered and women to be raped? Just for not being saved? That makes it sound even worse.
so you edited a bit.
what doesn't matter? that i had rational explinations that you are too stubborn to believe?
somewhat. during the rapture, people who have had the chance to be saved will suffer. however, they do have a second chance. people want to make god sound so unforgiving, when they just leave out certain parts.
different people have different times for being saved. certain people will suffer. children wont because they haven't had the chance or the option yet. read revalations.
Sounds like we need a God vs Satan southpark. Or better yet, a God vs Kenny.
QUOTE(hazardous @ Jun 4 2007, 03:59 PM)
so you edited a bit.
what doesn't matter? that i had rational explinations that you are too stubborn to believe?
somewhat. during the rapture, people who have had the chance to be saved will suffer. however, they do have a second chance. people want to make god sound so unforgiving, when they just leave out certain parts.
different people have different times for being saved. certain people will suffer. children wont because they haven't had the chance or the option yet. read revalations.
what doesn't matter? that i had rational explinations that you are too stubborn to believe?
somewhat. during the rapture, people who have had the chance to be saved will suffer. however, they do have a second chance. people want to make god sound so unforgiving, when they just leave out certain parts.
different people have different times for being saved. certain people will suffer. children wont because they haven't had the chance or the option yet. read revalations.
No, I realized that you were right - it wasnt God just killing people, it was reffering to the rapture. But either way, that's still pretty bad. Yeah, everyone does have the chance to be saved... but why do you think alot of people turn it down? It's definitely not to be rebellious, at least in most cases. It's called LOGIC. Logical-minded people are more into proof... and have a much harder time with faith. So how is it a person's fault if they try to find the answers in life.... (the correct religion) and dont find it? That's assuming Christianity is correct. God created us... and obviously made some people more logical than others.
I didnt pay much attention to the verses I posted yesterday... I just copied the references and summaries off of yahoo answers. I'm going to start using my actual Bible from now on.
Okay... and with the whole "children wont" garbage, have you not read the verses? I'm not really concerned what Revelations says. If it actually does state that, then it's a contradiction.
"(15) Everyone that is found shall be thrust through; and everyone that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. (16) Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished. (17) Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it. (18) Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces, and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children."
how is it so bad. he died on the cross. he gives us several chances(more than two)to redeem ourselves and the ones that don't have to suffer the consequences. tell me this. when god does come back, and people see him, do you think more people are going to base their beliefs by "logic" and living in hell rather than facing that they were wrong and having everlasting life? i don't think so.again, that's talking about the rapture. i don't really understand what you're getting at here. revalations doesn't contradict anything.
everything in the bible isn't meant to be taken literal. that's probably one of those things. my preacher is gone for the week, so i'll have to wait until next week to ask him about it.
everything in the bible isn't meant to be taken literal. that's probably one of those things. my preacher is gone for the week, so i'll have to wait until next week to ask him about it.
Uhm, okay. The reference I originally listed was Isaiah 13:15-18. I mistakenly assumed the wrong thing, and you corrected me by saying that the verses were reffering to the rapture. But then you claimed that Revelations says that children wont suffer during the rapture. Isaiah clearly states that they will. So which is it? One of those is obviously incorrect, so this has to be a contradiction. Understand now?
So how are we supposed to know what can and cannot be taken literally? Maybe children not suffering in Revelations shouldnt be taken literally - but the other verses from Isaiah should be. Or vice versa. How the heck do you think we're supposed to be able to pick out what can and cannot be taken literally? It's impossible. But I think that's just a crappy explanation to why there's contradictions.
Crap, you edited. Well this is to what you originally said.
Yeah, hahah of course. It's so much easier to believe in something when you can actually see, hear, or feel it. I really dont understand what you're trying to say. You mean, are people going to realize that God is who the Bible says he is, once they're in hell? Well of course they would. How are you supposed to face that you're wrong about something when you dont realize that you really are wrong?
So how are we supposed to know what can and cannot be taken literally? Maybe children not suffering in Revelations shouldnt be taken literally - but the other verses from Isaiah should be. Or vice versa. How the heck do you think we're supposed to be able to pick out what can and cannot be taken literally? It's impossible. But I think that's just a crappy explanation to why there's contradictions.
Crap, you edited. Well this is to what you originally said.
QUOTE
when god does come back, and people see him, do you think more people are going to base their beliefs by "logic" and living in hell rather than facing that they were wrong and having everlasting life? i don't think so.again, that's talking about the rapture.
Yeah, hahah of course. It's so much easier to believe in something when you can actually see, hear, or feel it. I really dont understand what you're trying to say. You mean, are people going to realize that God is who the Bible says he is, once they're in hell? Well of course they would. How are you supposed to face that you're wrong about something when you dont realize that you really are wrong?
QUOTE(kimmytree @ Jun 4 2007, 07:31 PM)
Uhm, okay. The reference I originally listed was Isaiah 13:15-18. I mistakenly assumed the wrong thing, and you corrected me by saying that the verses were reffering to the rapture. But then you claimed that Revelations says that children wont suffer during the rapture. Isaiah clearly states that they will. So which is it? One of those is obviously incorrect, so this has to be a contradiction. Understand now?
So how are we supposed to know what can and cannot be taken literally? Maybe children not suffering in Revelations shouldnt be taken literally - but the other verses from Isaiah should be. Or vice versa. How the heck do you think we're supposed to be able to pick out what can and cannot be taken literally? It's impossible. But I think that's just a crappy explanation to why there's contradictions.
Crap, you edited. Well this is to what you originally said.
Yeah, hahah of course. It's so much easier to believe in something when you can actually see, hear, or feel it. I really dont understand what you're trying to say. You mean, are people going to realize that God is who the Bible says he is, once they're in hell? Well of course they would. How are you supposed to face that you're wrong about something when you dont realize that you really are wrong?
So how are we supposed to know what can and cannot be taken literally? Maybe children not suffering in Revelations shouldnt be taken literally - but the other verses from Isaiah should be. Or vice versa. How the heck do you think we're supposed to be able to pick out what can and cannot be taken literally? It's impossible. But I think that's just a crappy explanation to why there's contradictions.
Crap, you edited. Well this is to what you originally said.
Yeah, hahah of course. It's so much easier to believe in something when you can actually see, hear, or feel it. I really dont understand what you're trying to say. You mean, are people going to realize that God is who the Bible says he is, once they're in hell? Well of course they would. How are you supposed to face that you're wrong about something when you dont realize that you really are wrong?
that is a prophecy of what the medes would do against babylon, not a commandment of the lord. in fact, this helps prove the bible is true. god said that this would happen and then it did. check your history books.
we aren't supposed to understand all the aspects of the bible. if we were, there would be no reason for studies or wondering behind religion. no, it's not a "crappy explination".
QUOTE
A problem most of us have with the book of Revelation today is that the explanations provided within the text are often as difficult to understand as the images they are supposed to explain. For example, it is not much help to know that the seven stars in Jesus' right hand are the "angels" of the seven churches unless we know what role angels have in relation to churches. The word angel means messenger, and some (for example, Tenney 1957:55) have theorized that these "angels" were actually human messengers of God, either the minister or the pastor of each church--assuming churches had a single leader by this time--or a prophet, or perhaps the public reader of John's letter to the assembled congregation (see 1:3).
Everywhere else in the book of Revelation, angels are supernatural messengers, and there is no reason to make an exception here. When angels in this book are identified, it is always either in relation to whomever they serve (for example, God's angel, or Christ's, in 1:1; 3:5; 22:6, 16; "Michael and his angels" in 12:7; "the dragon and his angels" in 12:7, 9), or in relation to the realm over which they rule (for example, "the angel of the Abyss" in 9:11 or the angel "who had charge of the fire" in 14:18 or "the angel in charge of the waters" in 16:5). "Angels of the seven churches" belong to the latter group. They rule or preside over the churches just as an angel presides over the sources of fresh water or over fire or over the realm of death and destruction (compare the four angels in control of the winds "who had been given power to harm the land and the sea" in 7:2). Like these angels over various spheres of existence, the angels of the seven churches are not easily characterized as either good or evil. They share in the moral ambiguity of the congregations over which they preside, as well as in the praise and the blame that those congregations deserve (see Beckwith 1922:445).
Today, because of our love for abstraction, we find John's distinction between the angels and their respective congregations--between the stars and the lampstands--rather confusing. Many of us would be more comfortable speaking of the ethos, the atmosphere or even the spirit (in a rather secular sense) of a congregation or a community than of its "angel." Yet to John they are, quite literally, angels whom God holds responsible for the life and well-being of the congregations. Paul had referred to speaking "in the tongues . . . of angels" (1 Cor 13:1) and had urged proper conduct in worship at Corinth "because of the angels" (1 Cor 11:10). They seem to have had their greatest importance in Paul's Asian congregations (Colossae and Laodicea), and Paul is careful to point out the danger of esteeming them too highly or putting them at the center of Christian worship or religious experience (see Col 2:18). Perhaps because of such tendencies in Asia, they are not pictured here in Revelation as dwelling "in the heavenly world" (Boring 1989:86) or as the churches' "spiritual counterparts" in heaven (Caird 1966:25). They are as much a part of this world as the churches for which they are responsible. "I know where you live," says Jesus to the angel of Pergamum, "where Satan has his throne" (2:13).
Everywhere else in the book of Revelation, angels are supernatural messengers, and there is no reason to make an exception here. When angels in this book are identified, it is always either in relation to whomever they serve (for example, God's angel, or Christ's, in 1:1; 3:5; 22:6, 16; "Michael and his angels" in 12:7; "the dragon and his angels" in 12:7, 9), or in relation to the realm over which they rule (for example, "the angel of the Abyss" in 9:11 or the angel "who had charge of the fire" in 14:18 or "the angel in charge of the waters" in 16:5). "Angels of the seven churches" belong to the latter group. They rule or preside over the churches just as an angel presides over the sources of fresh water or over fire or over the realm of death and destruction (compare the four angels in control of the winds "who had been given power to harm the land and the sea" in 7:2). Like these angels over various spheres of existence, the angels of the seven churches are not easily characterized as either good or evil. They share in the moral ambiguity of the congregations over which they preside, as well as in the praise and the blame that those congregations deserve (see Beckwith 1922:445).
Today, because of our love for abstraction, we find John's distinction between the angels and their respective congregations--between the stars and the lampstands--rather confusing. Many of us would be more comfortable speaking of the ethos, the atmosphere or even the spirit (in a rather secular sense) of a congregation or a community than of its "angel." Yet to John they are, quite literally, angels whom God holds responsible for the life and well-being of the congregations. Paul had referred to speaking "in the tongues . . . of angels" (1 Cor 13:1) and had urged proper conduct in worship at Corinth "because of the angels" (1 Cor 11:10). They seem to have had their greatest importance in Paul's Asian congregations (Colossae and Laodicea), and Paul is careful to point out the danger of esteeming them too highly or putting them at the center of Christian worship or religious experience (see Col 2:18). Perhaps because of such tendencies in Asia, they are not pictured here in Revelation as dwelling "in the heavenly world" (Boring 1989:86) or as the churches' "spiritual counterparts" in heaven (Caird 1966:25). They are as much a part of this world as the churches for which they are responsible. "I know where you live," says Jesus to the angel of Pergamum, "where Satan has his throne" (2:13).
QUOTE
For dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf Ex.32:27-28, 35, BT 3000 30,536,003
Can someone please explain this to me?
Supposedly, he was worshiping a false idol (the golden calf), which is against one of the ten commandments.
QUOTE(Arjuna Capulong @ Jun 21 2007, 12:58 AM)
Supposedly, he was worshiping a false idol (the golden calf), which is against one of the ten commandments.
If I dance naked around a golden calf, will God kill me?
QUOTE(xKatt @ Jun 21 2007, 07:41 PM)
If I dance naked around a golden calf, will God kill me?
old testament<modern day.
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