Many people have different views on this. Some say no because the flag is their heritage and many say yes because of what it represents now i nthe present. So the question is If the Confederate Flag Racist.

This was started on another forum and this is what i had to say (keep in mind some people were replying back so, sorry if i repeated my self in any sentences, also it was also starting to talk about the war)



finished sorry it was alot

the flag isn't racist. neither is the swastika. it's the ideas that were behind the two that are racist.

And when people flaunt it, it's fully racist. Most people have enough common sense not to parade an archaic symbol around that stands for hate. If you see some redneck or skinhead with a swastika/confederate flag, punch em in the stomach and show them what hate feels like when you're on the recieving end.

That is a racist view in itself.

You are absolutely wrong. It must take someone who lives in the south to understand this. It doesn't represent the hatred that of course we allll have for black people, because you know, we're southern, so we must be a bunch of racists, right? (That was sarcasm)
No, it's about our heritage, it's about where we came from. If it's a symbol of hatred to you, then tough.

It's rediculous these days what people try to say is racist. It's freakin retarded and I, personally, am sick and tired of someone screaming "racist" over the stupidest crap.

I agree, I mean.. just because a minority of ppl may abuse it for racism, but that doesnt mean that we should classify southerners as a whole and discredit their heritage

Society tends to want to block out bad memories, and thats why the Confederate flag is looked down upon, because it represents southern heritage, but also a heritage that owned slaves, and ppl want to forget that part of history.. like in Germany.. how ppl try to completely block out the fact that Hitler ever was in power

flags are a representation of something so therefore it could be racist.



I'm from the South and i feel no connection to that flag why? because the flag was of the Confederacy a place that doesn't exist anymore. The flag came about because of the sucession of the Confederacy making their own "country" the flag representated that country and like i said before there is no Confederacy anymore so how can it hold the heritage and how can you love it. The flag represents separation and discrimination and a whole lot of unpositive things because of the way it is used. Nothing will change that fact.

The flag represents a period in Southern history, you CANNOT DENY THOSE YEARS, I mean. it'd be nice to be able to erase things from history, but you simply cant do that.. sure the Confederacy used it during the war, but to those soldiers defending their homes against the invading Union Army, the majority of them werent fighting for to uphold slavery, they were fighting to defend their homeland, you cannot disregard the valor and sacrificies made by the soldiers during that time period

The Confederates lost. Geez, get rid of your flag already. Hahaha.

the flag itself isn't racist, but the people that were represented by it in the civil war were. its like say the art club has a lot of nice people but its still the art club not the nice people club.

i agree, its what the flag stands for, same as the swastika. people have a right to be proud of their heritage but the flag represents something that wasn't so nice. i think you should not use the flag however because it is offending to some people.

EXACTLY!



No freakin' comment.



I would like to say that I see your point, but I really don't. I respect you for your opinion, but I totally disagree that it should be banned. You must be FOR censorship, too, then?

if that's true, then the flag only represents the south's secession from the union, not racism.

Wait, last time I checked the COnfederate flag was a flag for the south, not for racism. Just because a majority of the people in the southh back in the old days were against blacks, doesnt mean that that flag is a symbol of hatred for blacks. It's 2004.
And also, just because it represents a period of time doesnt mean it represents the hate. I mean, I really don't see a huge picture of a black getting hung on there, do i?

A majority of people, not all, but a majority of them in Germany were nazis during WW2 and they choose the swastika as their symbol.

A majority of people, not all, but a majority of them in the South were racist biggots during the revolutionay war and they choose the confederate flag as their symbol.

No difference. Go parade the swastika while you're at it. At least it's more recent.

If you're gonna celebrate a populaces "heritage" with their defeated symbol, go for it. The truth is, alot of people find it offensive. I'm sure people are in their right to wave some flag from way back when, but whoever said it was "2004" is basically right. Move on, find a new flag; not the flag that shows your ancestors mislead ways.

THE FLAG MEANS REBEL

No comment


There is a difference, there wasnt a majority of ppl that were Nazis in Germany, power was held and controlled strictly by a select few who used terror tactics to keep power.. a lot of ppl fought for the german army because they were afraid of what might happen to them or their families if they refused

The Conferderacy on the other hand, believed in their flag, not because it represented racism, only a SELECT MINORITY of the south were aristocratic slaveowners, most soliders didnt fight for slavery, they fought for their homeland, for their families, by erasing the flag from history erases all the courageous deeds done by the soldiers for what they believed in; thats the most important difference between the Confederate flag and the Nazi Swatstika, ppl believed in the flag, believed in it for a different reason than the connotation of slavery that most ppl think today


That's the exact same argument that the issue about the pledge of allegience brings up.. just because its offensive to some ppl, should we not say the pledge as well?

I agree with emerald...I mean, if it offends you, don't use it, don't look at it, don't address it. No one's telling you to.

When the flag is on the state capital it implies the visions behind the flag and that it is ok

The Confederate Flag is part of history... it should be regarded as that, not as something racist.

My avatar is a Hitler smiley? Does that make me a Nazi? no.

doesn't seem racist to me but, anyways no comment otherwise.

But the flag is just so cool!

Just for the record, the issue of states' rights that started the Civil War was NOT just over slavery. Another equally important issue was the Tariff. South wanted low, North wanted high. South Carolina threatened to Nullify the COnstitution in 1832. Was it because of slavery? NO. It was because the the tariff. When the Confederates wrote their constitution, they made extra sure to prevent high tariffs.

The Confederacy has had a lot of bad rap recently. Not to be a racist bigot, but if you actually bothered to read the Confederate Constitution, you can see that it was a MUCH better Constitution for a free society than the US Constitution, with the single exception, of course, of slavery. The US Constitution appears fascist by comparison.

If the Confederate Constitution were amended to abolish slavery, I would live under that over the Union Constitution any day.

Some reasons the Confederate Constituion would be better than the American one:

- One term limit for presidents: No FDR Dictatorship. We wouldn't have to worry about Bush being reelected.
- Banned the use of Riders on Bills: No "Protection of Children 2003 Act" that allows Congress to tax online products. This has actually happened.
- 2/3 Majority in Congress to approve new spending: Bye bye, $4 trillion deficit
- Abolished bounties. No secret police or FBI-hired hitmen.
- Internal improvements restricted. No longer can State A use its political clout to tkae money from State B--Federal authority restricted to federal matters.
- All spending bills rigidly defined: No social security act.
- Naturalization requirement removed for the Senate: Immigrants do not need to fulfill a residency requirement to run for Senate.
- The entire Bill of Rights in its entirety, with more emphasis on strict interpretation of powers: That means no PATRIOT Act, no BATF, etc.

Also remember that the South would have had NO political parties. Which means infinitely less corruption than there is today.

The Confederate Constitution contained ALL of the rights in the 1860 Union Constitution, PLUS new ones that would still serve us well today--the right to be free from unreasonable taxation, more restrictions on government pork.

As you can see--and I cannot emphasize this enough--IF IT ABOLISHED SLAVERY, which of course it didn't--The Confederacy would have been a MUCH freer and more just place to live than the Union. If the South won the Civil War, then abolsihed slavery, it--not the North--would be the Beacon of Democracy.

Had slavery not been an issue, it is clear that the South would have held the high moral ground--as it, in fact, did in 1861 (There weren't English people clamoring to support the North, were there?). Lincoln, the brillaint president he was, issued the Emancipation Proclamation TO STOP EUROPE FROM HELPING THE SOUTH. After issuing the said Proclamation, the North became the moral side, and the South became the "bad guys". It is sheer historical revisionism to say that the rest of the world looked upon the South as the "bad guys" in 1861 or 1862.

The last country to abolish slavery was Brazil in 1888. They did so relatively non-violently. Slavery was NOT economically sustainable. Slavery WAS going to die out by the late 1860s to early 1870s in the United States, considering it was not nearly as deeply rooted her as in Brazil. Had the South WON the civil war, we would be living in a much better society today.

I realize this is pure conjecture, but let me present this alternate history:
1861: Ft. Sumter; Civil War Begins; Trent Affair; Britsh intervene for the South and break the Union blockade
1862: General Baylor declares Arizona and New Mexico to be Confederate territories.
1863: Battle of Chancellorsville; Stonewall Jackson Survives; South wins Battle of Gettysburg; Britian puts diplomatic pressure on the North.
1864: Lincoln loses the election. McClellan, the democratic president, declares peace with the South.
1865: North and South sign a peace treaty and continue to exist as independent countries.
1867: Jefferson Davis's term as President ends; War Hero Robert E. Lee elected new presdient of the Confederacy
1868: Economic crisis in South.
Early 1870s: Compensated emancipation of slaves, brought on by Lee's demands and popularity, as well as economic reality. Remember that Lee ardently opposed slavery to begin with, and when the war was over, took communion with a black man. He was probably the LEAST racist of all generals in the Civil War.
1873: Lee's term as president expires; replaced by former Vice President Alexander Stephens.
1876: Southern Transcontinental railroad through New Mexico and Arizona.
1880s-1890s: Industrialization in South. Industrialization is carried out more equitably, due to the lack of a millionaire "trust" class.
1898: Spanish-American War; South and North unite to fight Spain. South acquires Cuba. Americans do not win as decisively, and thus, the Spanish are allowed to keep Phillipines. 10,000 American soldiers and 600,000 Philippinos lives are saved by not invading the Phillippines.
1903: Teddy Rooselvet becomes President of the North; Panama Canal Crisis. North acquires Panama Canal.
1912: Woodrow Wilson DEFEATED in election by the Republican candidate (remember that Wilson's support was based in the South). The Republican candidate adopts isolationism. America never gets involved in World War I.
1917: World War I ends with a peace treaty between Britain and Germany. Civil war in Russia; Germans, British, and French invade Russia and defeat teh Bolsheviks, who have less support than in real life. Monarchs remain in power in Germany and Russia.
1929: Stock market crash. Low Southern Tariffs prevent the total collapse and the Great Depression becomes just a minor recession, while a helathy Germany prevents collapse in Europe. Financial aid to North from Europe and South.
1932: Hoover defeats FDR in a razor-thin margin.
1933: Hitler runs for Chancellor. Soundly defeated by the healthy economy.
1935: Hitler's second coup. Fails again and Hitler is put in jail for the last time.
1937: Second Sino-Japanese War, North and Czarist Russia help China, Japanese defeated.

A little obsessed there, eh Minda?

Ok so my post was a little long... I was writing LD CFL cases and I was bored... needed an excuse to procrastinate. Besides, I love alt hists.

CFL? haha alt hists is great.. have you read the books by Harry Turtledove? (its not off topic cuz its about the confederacy and if they won the war..)

I haven't read any of his works, no.

CFL = Catholic Forensics League (sometimes written as NCFL, National Catholic Forensics League). They're like teh NFL's evil twin.

Oh, haha, i dont think we have that here.. maybe we do, but I'm kinda clueless, haha

Well their Grand National Tournament is in Boston, Puritan Hell, as opposed to Salt Lake, Mormon Hell, so I guess that's better.

Just think of them as the NFL's evil twin.

Why evil?

Have you ever heard of a not-evil twin?

Mostly, they're evil cause they have their Grand National Tournament during my school's graduation so our seniors can't go.

Yes, in fact I have


Hahaha Yes that is me sticking out my tongue at you

um back on topic, i do think the confederate flag is racist. i live in the south as well, and i'm not black, but i still think it's racist. the flag was only used during the 4 years the civil war was going on. the flag was a symbol of rebellion- the south wanting to break from the united states. and why did they want to break from the US? Because the north wanted to ban slavery. it's a symbol used to fight for slaves. and most people know it's wrong, but the flag is representing a time when people in the south thought it was right, and were willing to die for it. okay i know that most the people who fought on the south were poor and from little shacks and didn't have slaves, but they were fighting for their side-- and their side wanted slaves. people in the south aren't using it to be proud of their heritage or whatever, because it represented a span of about 15 years of rebellion. that is in no way representing heritage. or at least any heritage to be proud of... But if you ARE proud of it enough to display it, that means you agree with their cause and are indeed racist. or at least agree with the south's old idea that slaves should be legal. which to me sounds racist, because it's stating that blacks are able to be owned and have no purpose of life other than to serve whites. the definition of racism is thinking a race is inferior to one's own. and to make a black a slave means you think they're inferior to you, and that they should be allowed to do your work for you and not even get paid.

im sick of people bashing the south. the south shouldn't be judged by their actions, but rather by their inspiring notions of freedom!

No, you're generalizing a lot.. like I've stated over and over.. onli a select minority of the south actually were aristocratic landowners.. the rest didnt care about slavery.. it'd be like generaliztion the US as a bunch of wealthy corporate businessmen, which of course is not the case


Its not, they fought to defend their homeland.. if foreigner invaded your home, would you not fight against them, regardless of what label politicians placed on your side? the politicians perhaps advocated slavery, but the common soldier did not


So that 15 years just disappears from history, as if it never happened? if it didnt, its part of their heritage, you cannot selectively disregard the parts of history you dont like

... so by being proud of the American flag during WWII would make you racist against Japanese? since the US did send thousands of Japanese into internment camps and discriminate against them.. so if you're proud of American history in general, you're racist? that's basically what you're saying.. think of what the US did to all the Native Americans, they invaded, killed them, and sent them to camps to make way for their settlers, is that not racist?

by your definition and your argument.. its racist to be proud of American history

Like i have stated endlessly.. it was just a select minority.. the majority either fought for their homeland (and had no control over what their politicians did) or were drafted (if they refused, they were killed) so what could they do? several of the foremost southern leaders werent in favor of slavery.. take Robert E. Lee, the foremost leader/general in the south, he was against slavery but did what his homeland requested of him

no... they fought to seperate from the union. not exactly a defensive move.

The Confederacy did NOT want to secede because of slavery. They wanted to secede because of tariffs, because the North had more power in Congress. Slavery was a minor reason they taught to 3rd graders so that they wouldnt be confused about life then.
Yes, it's a symbol of rebellion.
Yea they thought slavery was right back then, but earlier than that the North did too. The whole of America used to be pro-slavery. Our American flag is bad?

Ah, Emerald owned you.

For the record, the North never wanted to ban slavery until 1863, and even then as a political move.

NEVER did Lincoln advocate banning slavery. EVER.

"If I could save the Union and free the slaves, I would do that. If I could save the Union and free no slaves, I would do that. And if I could save the Union and free some slaves while leaving others alone, I would do that too."
--Lincoln, 1862--after the war already started.

The AMERICAN flag is a symbol of rebellion! We broke away from the grand old British Empire!

And aside from slavery, the Confederacy has a lot to be proud of. They created a Constitution and enforced it much better than the Union did. The average Confederate soldier had fair officesr and enjoyed much more freedom than the average Union soldier who usually had corrupt officers.

Machinoman, seceding from an existing country IS definitionally a defensive move. When you secede, you nullify oppressive laws that are aimed against you. You are NOT seeking to inavde the other country.

Did the South want to conquer Washington? No. They just wanted to be left alone.

I never claimed it was an offensive move; I'm just saying attacking the north for not agreeing with their policies in order to seperate from them is about as defensive as kicking someone you disagree with.

The North attacked first. After a state of war is declared the South had the right to invade the North TO GET THE NORTH TO SUE FOR PEACE. The invasion of Pennsylvania wasn't to conquer land, it was to destroy northern morale.

It would have been defensive of teh American Colonists to land an army in Great Britain to force George III to move his armies back home and stop attacking the US.

Ahhh... so when fighting is appropriate, like in boxing, the first blow acts as a defensive maneuver. It was a little hard to grasp at first, but now I got it.

Also, the north never declared war against the south, the first move was southern.

Lincoln sent troops to reinforce Ft. Sumter in order to blockade Charleston Harbor. According to modern rules of warfare, a blockade constitutes a declaration of war.

The blockade was declared on April 19, 1861.
The first shots of the Civil War were fired by Confederate guns on Fort Johnson in the morning of April 12, 1861. I was there. How could you be so right about Allah and so wrong about this?

Yes the first shots were fired by Confederate gusn on Fort SUMTER. But the fort itself was blockading the port of charleston.

It was a declared blockade yet. It wasn't officially a blockade.

It was a blockade de facto.

You are a blockade de facto.


"There are three sides to every argument: The right side, the wrong side, and the bottom side. And the front side." - Anonymous

What IS de facto?

And ermm...didn't stupid Lincoln BREAK the constitution? Yeah. The worst president ever.

De facto means IN FACT.

EVERY President broke the COnstitution. Lincoln is one of our best presidents, because he had the guts to try and fix it after it was done.

"It is better to tear a few holes in the Constitution and mend it later than to lose it altogether."
--Abe Lincoln.

Compare this to a president, say FDR or LBJ who simply believed the Constitution DIDNT MATTER. THEY are probably the worst presidents.

That's true, but out of the 228 years the South was part of the United States, people choose to display a flag representing 4 years of rebellion?



it's impossible for me to be racist against Japanese, because I am Japanese. But besides that, the American flag wasn't designed during the internment of the Japanese, and the American flag didn't represent their quest to keep one race under the control of another.



No because "American" isn't a race.



True, the war was not all about slavery. But when you say they fought for their homeland, you must realize that their homeland was the United States of America, and that their fight was not in defense, but was one forcibly rebelling against their own country.



First, this isn't a question of REBELLION. It's a question of RACISM. Tell me how and when the American flag was a symbol of rebelling in order to keep blacks slaves with no meaning of life. The Americans rebelled from the British to be independant and free from ridiculous Brittish taxes. True, the South's arguement was not ALL about slavery, but slavery was PART of the reason of erecting the flag, and the factor that sparked the differences between the two sides.

And the flag is a symbol of the South's quest for independence- because the North WAS trying to abolish slavery, many people in the North were. The South got angered because new states were being developed, and there was always a battle between whether or not the state would be a slave state or a free state. The South feared that if there were more free states than slave states, congress would vote to abolish slavery. This was one of the main reasons why South Carolina basically began the war by seceeding from the Union. This is why slavery was a major contributing factor in this war.

Now I will say again, "Racism" is thinking a race is inferior to their own. This thread is about racism. Now who will argue against the fact that by enslaving a particular race and making them work for no pay, and treating them like animals is racism? Who disagrees? Displaying a flag that stands for the South's rebellion is displaying a flag that stands for many things, but most of all, racism.




Oh darling, I think not.

Why do we display the old 13-star Ross flag, even though it represented 2 years of rebellion in our 400 year history? No one celebrates conformity. It's like in the stock market. Every day, BILLIONS of dollars change hands WITHOUT INCIDENT. Do we focus on that? No. We focus on the rare scandals like Enron. As I said, conformity is all around us. We don't have to celebrate it.



You can be a self-loathing Japanese.

America's flag was designed during a Revolution, that was fought IN PART to protect slavery. England abolished slavery in the early 1830s, we waited for 30 more years. While slavery was not a major issue during the Revolution, it WAS an issue. It helped to actually convince teh Southern Colonies to defend New England (taxation without representation didn't hurt the Carolinas as much as it hurt Massachusetts, which was dependent on trade and such).



Their homeland was the land they were living on. To say that the Southerners homeland was the United States is like saying Kurds are Iraqis or Palestinians are Israelis, or that American Colonials were British. While technically true, it is STILL a defensive rebellion if all you seek is independence. We were technically British in 1770s and 1780s. The American Revolution was against our own leaders. That was the point. If it was against foreigners, it would be a war, not a revolution.

To sum: To say that Southerners were Americans in 1860 is like saying Palestinians are Israelis. It's technically true, but just semantically incorrect.



As I mentioned before, slavery WAS an issue. Southern Planation owners supported the new country even though they were not being hit by taxes, which were mainly mercantile taxes. Why? Because they would have more control over the new government to secure slavery. Moreover, if you read the Constitution, it basically acknowledged (or used to, before the Thirteenth Amendment) the legitimacy of slavery: In one area, it prohibits the importation of slaves after the year 1808 but protects the status of slaveowners beyond that.

The highest law of the land supported slavery until 1865. It was ONE issue, not THE issue. Likewise in the Civil War slavery was ONE issue, not THE issue. I posted a link to a copy of the Confederate Constitution earlier... Reading the Confederate Constitution shows that, ASIDE FROM SLAVERY, the South was developing a system far freer and far more democratic than the North's system. That's why the South was in the moral "right" prior to 1863.



Abolition was a MINORITY MOVEMENT. Lincoln NEVER, EVER advocated abolishing slavery. In fact, Lincoln would most likely have vetoed any abolition bill, because he was most interested in protecting the Union. Lincoln proposed a policy of containment of slavery. The South was afraid of the slippery slope. When South Carolina's legislature voted to secede, there was STILL a sectional balance. New Mexico and Arizona were BOTH probably going to enter as slave states, to build a Southern transcontinental railroad. To say that, in lieu of civil war, slavery would have been abolished, is pure historical revisionism.



Displaying the Southern flag can also be displaying something that stands for Low Tariffs. Or an Independent Post Office. Or under-control Government Spending.

Slavery was only ONE of MANY issues at stake. The South feared a slippery slope that would lead to bigger government once containment was in place. The CSA Constitution reflects this year. The Southern Constitution contains EVERY RIGHT in the Bill of RIghts, and then some other rights that are SORELY NEEDED TODAY. The Southern Constitution restrained government to a much more effective level. With the Southern Constitution, we would NOT have a multi-trillion dollar deficit, huge entitlement programs, and civil liberties restrictions like PATRIOT.

Slavery was ECONOMICALLY DOOMED TO FAILURE. While the Southern Constitution has one racist clause in it protecting the rights of the holders of "enslaved negro persons", it was otherwise in my opinion a much more democratic Constitution than our own.

There were 15 major changes between the USA and CSA Constitution. Of those, only 5 had to do with slavery. Of those 5, 3 protected slavery, while 2 actually WEAKENED slavery by prohibiting further importation of slaves. The other changes set restrictions on government spending, required legislative supermajority on key issues, created an independent post office (which we FINALLY did 100 years after the Civil War), abolished legislative "riders" (this would effectively had killed the US PATRIOT Act) and set a one-term limit for President. THESE ARE THINGS THAT WE NEED TO DO TODAY AS IS PATENTLY CLEAR TO ANYONE PAYING ATTENTION TO THE KIND OF STUFF THAT OUR CURRENT GOVERNMENT IS PULLING.

Here's the link to the CSA Constitution, with a summary of the major changes: http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/books/co...n-csa-xtra.html