Should Affirmative Action be outlawed?

I want to hear what others say before I comment

Here's my opinion in a nutshell:

If a private, non-tax-funded school wants to do it, it's none of my business.

If a public, tax-funded school (they shouldn't exist in the first place, but that's another issue) wants to do it, they shouldn't be allowed to.

I've already dealt with the issue in depth on my personal website. I'm not going to bother copying the article over: http://www.zendebater.easy.dk3.com/affaction

If you want a summary, basically: The rationale for having affirmative action is having a diversity of opinions. It's ludicrous to tie "opinion" in with "race".

Search for Eugene Volokh's article "Diversity, Race as Proxy, Religion as Proxy" or something like that. It is very good.

bah, affirmative action isn't fair. people should be accepted for their qualification, not because they are a minority.

*nods* and it's reverse discrimination.

I don't necessarily agree completely with it... maybe instead of banning it, it should be restricted or maybe lower requirements and standards?

getting hired/accepted because of the color of your skin is no better than being denied because of the color of your skin. It's still discriminates against others

It's not right to take away from those who worked their asses off to get the credentials they need to get a good job just to hand it over to someone else because you have a quota of skin color to maintain.

Yeah, as others have said before me - it's reverse discrimination. It really isn't fair, as dasturbd said, to take away jobs to those that did work for it simply because they aren't the right skin color.

But what if they were denied the job because they were black or a woman? Affirmative Action was created to give an oppertunity to people who would not usually get that oppertunity.

This is something i relate to


Affirmative Action is good and bad at the same time. Good that it gives people a chance who wouldn't get a chance if the person hiring is pejudice and racist. Bad in the fact that it gives some people chanes that they do not deserve because they are a minority

*Ahem*

First, if your goal was to make sure that blacks had an equal footing in the job market, then you would pass EQUAL OPPORTUNITY LAWS, NOT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION LAWS.

Second, my right to free association trumps your right to my money. If a PRIVATE (meaning: not recieving public money) employer wants to refuse to hire people based on race, he has that right. Of course, this only applies to organizations that are not recieving public money, as they have a First Amendment right to free association (they use the word assembly, both of which are the same thing). If I buy a house, I don't HAVE to let you in. If I want to let only white people into my house, or if I want to let only black people into my house, it's MY house. I can let whoever I want in. Similarly, if I own a store, and I only want to let people of a certain race in, it's MY store. Not yours.

That has nothing to do with Affirmative Action, that is you don't want black people buying stuff in your store in your house. Affirmative Action is to help minorities to get in the work force,get into university that wouldn't let thme because they are black

But it applies to unviersities as well. If I run a PRIVATE university that recieves no public funding, I have teh right to let whomever I want in... and that includes only letting in people of a certain right. Don't believe me? www.bju.edu --> just one of many universities that acutally do this. A private school has the RIGHT to discriminate for the same reason I have teh right to discriminate in not letting people of a certain race into my house or store.

my reasons i won't be able to get in agood college.

1. my grades
2. no money
3. i'm a white, straight, male.

there should only be 2, don'cha think?

HAHAHAH
thats cute.

so then we all agree that:
- a person should be hired based on qualifications and not skin color.

and

we all don't approve of:
affirmative action aka reverse discrimination:preference for minorities
discrimination: preference for non minorities

k 'nough said.

affirmitave action is discrimination for certain minorities.

when i regester for college, i'm registering as hispanic.


a protest that was done:

college kids, hold a 'bake sale'

cookies 50 cents if you're black, hispanic, native american, or another minority besides asian. it's a dollar for asians and whites.

drinks 50cents unless you're sibling or parent alreday bought one, then it's 25cents

brownies are 15 cents for everyone, but asians and whites can't buy them.


just thier luck, there was a black music festival or something there. people went to buy baked goods... decided it was a F'ing racist place and started a riot.


if what the colleges do is legal, then is seating a black person first in a restraunt legal cus you "want a divierity in you diners" ????????

yea. i'm asian. it gets to me.

oh yea, and it doesn't matter how private your buisiness is. if you deny service or jobs based soley on race, you are in for a billion dollar lawsuit.

it is not discrimination. Job discrimination is grounded in prejudice and exclusion, whereas affirmative action is an effort to overcome prejudicial treatment through inclusion.

oh , so treating on race better isn't racism.

so the KKK is wrong for treating the non white races inferiorly

and the colleges are right for treating the whites and azns inferiorly?

Affirmitive action should be outlawed I agree with sadolakced acid

my moms works at a job where affirmitive action takes place all the time and she has to work harder than a lot of people from a colored race

affirmative action doesn't say that whites are below anyone

they don't say it. they treat asians and whites worst

people with worse qualifications are acepted to jobs anc colleges because a little thing called affirmative action lets them.

affirmative action is legalized racism.

any race except for shites and asains gets extra points.

in michigan, a perfect SAT score gets you +1 point on the formula to see if you make the basic requirements.

being black, hispanic, native american, or anything besides whites and asain give s you one point.


so the the white guy who does everything the same as the hispanic guy, but the white guy gets perfect on his SATs, and the hispanic guy gets a 800 total. the hispanic guy is the guy they pick. because he's hispanic.

you're right. affirmative action doesn't treat asians or whites like thier inferior. it treats the blacks, hispanics, and native americans as they are.

what they are saying is that you ( the minoritys minus asians) are not smart enough to get into college by yourself. that you are dumb, that you race makes you dumb. and they compensate for it. that is what affirmative action says.

and you know what? if you put it that way, i think i'm fine with affirmative action.

you're only dissing yourself (if you support it and are a minority, except asians).

it is not legalized racism affirmative action. The situation you presented is false, because an 800 for example is not accepted in most colleges. Plus SATS scores ARE NOT major in some colleges. Plus in no real situation has both people done the exact same thing.

Affirmative action is not saying that a minority is too dumb to get in by themselves, it is saying that there are too many ignortant racist who are deans of colleges who wouldn't dare alet a person of color or a woman get in without being forced to let them in. And also if you didn't know affirmative action not only helps people with color but also females, veterans and disabled persons. You say affirmative action makes whites and asians and men work harder, that is a lie. There are a number of slots for the minorities and say in it they made it that 16 out of 100 reserved for minorities. That not fair?? that is less than a 1/4 reserved for minorites. That mean that we as minorities have to work HARDER to be one of those very few that make it into the slot.

Lets define racism:
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

Let define affirmative action:
Affirmative action programs seek to remedy past discrimination against women, minorities, and others by increasing the recruitment, promotion, retention, and on-the-job training opportunities in employment and by removing barriers to admission to educational institutions. Because of the long history of discrimination based on sex and race, most affirmative action programs have been directed towards improving employment and education opportunities for women and minorities.

Completely different

You also presented many MYTHS about Affirmative Action here are some, btw affirmative action does NOT hurt Asian-Americans

MYTH: Affirmative action hurts Whites and Asians.

FACT: Though affirmative action is believed to have harmed white men, this contradicts the reality that white men hold structural power in society today. For example, a Washington Post study shows that 95% of top corporate executives are white males. Asians benefit in many ways from affirmative action by making use of services provided by programs such as the Educational Opportunity Program, Upward Bound, and so on. It is another myth to believe that all Asians are a success story. A UCLA School of Urban Planning study shows that Pacific Islanders and South East Asians have poverty rates which are three times greater than white Americans. Other studies indicate enrollment of Pilipinos in higher education is much closer to African-Americans and Latinos that other Asians. Asians, revered as the "model minority" includes Pacific Islanders, South East Asians and Philipinos, yet there are distinct disparities between say a third generation Chinese student and a first generation Cambodian refugee. Thus affirmative action can only help not hinder the Asian community.

MYTH: Affirmative action is reverse discrimination, it gives preferential treatment to people of color and women.
FACT: Racism is power plus discrimination. The parameters of discrimination based on race are distinguished by the power dynamics. Reverse racism is not, therefore a reality if people of color are not in positions of power and perpetrating the discrimination. An Urban Institute study shows that less that 100 of 3000 cases could be considered reverse discrimination. Less that six of those cases were deemed by the court to be substantiated.
Affirmative action has been mislabeled "preferential treatment" for certain members of society. In reality it is a kind of social restitution and an attempt to create a more democratic society. President Johnson, in describing affirmative action, stated, "You do not take a person who for years has been hobbled by chains, liberate him and bring him to the starting line of a race and say, 'You are free to compete with others,' and still justly believe that you have been completely fair." Thus, it is not enough just to open the gates of opportunity: all must have the ability to walk through those gates. Affirmative action is an attempt to facilitate a more level playing field.
Affirmative action recognizes the interconnectedness of race, class, gender. Many of the symbolic gates are beyond reach due to economic disparity which in turn is one of the effects of racism. We cannot divorce these interconnected issues from one another. Beginning with the consideration of race as permissible in university admissions, in the Regents of the University of California vs. Bakke, the court rejected the notion that the constitution prohibits considerations of race. In the UC system, race and ethnicity are not solely considered for admissions. Thus, there is no such thing as preferential treatment. Other criteria such as socio-economic level, state residency, special abilities, disabilities, familial ties and athletic ability are used in determining admissions. These supplemental criteria benefit everyone, not only people of color.

Myth: Nobody else gets special consideration when applying to a college or for a job. Why should all women and people of color?
Fact: Lots of people get "special" consideration when applying for jobs or to schools.
Veterans often get preferences in workplaces and on campuses — which usually benefit men more than women. The children of alumni get preferential treatment over others in admission to college. Friends help friends and acquaintances get jobs. Affirmative Action helps open doors for women and people of color who often don't have those connections.

Myth: Affirmative Action lowers standards in education and the workplace by letting unqualified people get ahead.
Fact: Affirmative Action helps qualified candidates overcome racism and sexism.
Affirmative Action is an investment in the future. By the time today's college students are at the height of their careers, one-third of the population will be comprised of African Americans and Latinos/Latinas.

i totally agree. i don't think its fair at all. i mean if you are choosing someone because they are a minority is totally racism to me. wouldn't it make more sense to pick the smartest out of the rest because there is more to compare with? i just don't understand colleges.

Just to point something out, he/she is saying that it IS okay.

no, he is being sarcastic and pointing out a few facts.

and i'm sorry onenonly101, but you are wrong. affirmative action does not aid asians. the asian continent is gigantic. anyone from there, in addition to pacific islanders, are considered asian/PA islander. which means, the success of some groups of asians leads to the whole group being treated differently

and just becausesome of the asians are smarter, and that even with affirmative action limiting our access to selective colleges, this minority has still mangagesd to earn up to 40% population at selective colleges, like berkley.

but you see, this is only a few of the asians.

you seen asian ghettos? there's in california. you've never heard of the asian prostitution rings? you are hurting all asians. because affirmative action gives NO SUPPORT TO ASIANS. ASIANS ARE CONSIDERED SMART ENOUGH ALREADY, BASED ON THE OBSERVATION THAT THERE ARE ASIANS IN UNIVERSITIES.

so , if i get what you're saying...
you're saying that

the blacks, hispanics, and other minoritys are too dumb to get into college and get jobs on thier own?

is that what you're saying?

and, asians have been treated as those. chinese exclusion acts, japanesse internments, lynchings of chinese. they were given the wortst jobs, just 80 years agos, and persecuted just 50. when did slavery end? over 150 years ago.

this is preffered treatment.

two wrongs do not make a right. sure, it was wrong the way minorities were treated. but using racism to reach racial quotas is not the way to make it better.


here is one that would. use some money to improve the schools in the slum areas and areas of poverty. then you'd actually be helping the people who need it, with out using racism.

i like your definition of racism. very political. there are 2 definitions of racism. don't leave off one.

here are all the definitions

Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
- rac·ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective

from merriam-webster.com check it out if you doubt.

look at number 2. that's affirmative action.

Affirmative Action helps Asians.Asians benefit in many ways from affirmative action by making use of services provided by programs such as the Educational Opportunity Program, Upward Bound, and so on.

Affirmative action is not discrimination, so therefore it is not racism



Ok I am going to repeat myself.Affirmative action is not saying that a minority is too dumb to get in by themselves, it is saying that there are too many ignortant racist who are deans of colleges who wouldn't dare alet a person of color or a woman get in without being forced to let them in.

Also why is it that you only say minorities, don't you understand that it is also for disabled people, veterans, and women. Address that. How is affirmative action racist against women,veteran, and disabled people?

DO I HAVE TO SCREAM IT?!?! AFFIRMATIVE ACTION DOES NOTHING FOR ASIANS AND WHITES.

do i have to scream AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IS NOT DISCRIMINATION OR RACISM, WHY? BECAUSE IT DOES NOT ONLY DEAL WITH RACE. You cannot speak those words for the entire program. ALSO Affirmative Action programs like Educational Opportunity Program, Upward Bound HELP Asians Americans so...............

<-- Agree that Affirmative Action is helpful to minorities in general (though it is more beneficial to some groups than other groups), however, how long will it take for equality in the job market? Will we always need Affirmative Action to get hired?

To me, Affirmative Action is almost something like a leverage, having a handicap over the majority. When I play games, I don't want to have a handicap, I want to win the game fair and square; no cheating, no helping out, no handicap.

Affirmative Action is a double edged sword. It's telling minorities that they're no good without Affirmative Action, and that minorities do not have to try as hard as the caucasians to get the same job that a caucasian would have to work their butt off. (Though I'm sure the reverse is true without such handicap as racism and discrimination runs rampant in the hearts of people).

It's true that Affirmative Action does somewhat 'equalize' the races in society, but too much of it imbalances this 'equation'.

Statistics prove otherwise. At U-Cal Berkeley before the end of affiramtivve action, the average entering Asian had to score a 1254 on the SATs, compared to 956 for blacks and 1232 for whites. Asians are hurt THE MOST.



The one thing I can't stand is misusing the english language. Let's see:

The American Heritage Dictionary defines discrimination as: "1. The act of discriminating. 2. The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment. 3. Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners."

Said dictionary says discriminate means: "1a. To make a clear distinction; distinguish: discriminate among the options available. b. To make sensible decisions; judge wisely."

College admissions process are inherently discriminatory-- they discriminate qualified and unqualified people. Even if you argue that affirmative action is good discrimination, it is nonetheless undeniable that it involves judging on race, and is therefore discrimination.



This is true for some private universities like Bob Jones University (www.bju.edu). But if you're black, would you really WANT to go to BJU?

Your argument is soundly disproven by solid facts. In colleges with affirmative action, the average entering white or Asian freshman has an SAT score 300 to 400 points higher than the average black entering freshman. In otherwords, they are held to a significantly higher standard. In colleges without affirmative action, namely the California Public Universities, the average SATs are about the same.



It's not. It's non-racially discriminatory.

we don't need affirmative action. we need something called equal opportunity. not affirmative action.

if i am not confused, affirmative action hold certain minorities to lower standards, claiming they need it.

equal opportunity is making the decision to hire someone or accept someone to a university blind to race.

We need to follow the Constitution... The Fourteenth Amendment forces all state governments and the federal government to NOT look at race at all when making decisions... The First Amendment (Right to Assembly/Association) guarantees that PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS have the right to decide their own racial policies... be it equal opportunity, affirmative action, quotas, or white supremacy.

....

The Constitution is a lot like wearing your seat belt in Pennsylvania: It's not just a good idea, it's the law.

The point is, as much as you hate bigots, it is fundamentally WRONG to force people to associate with people they don't want to associate with. If I don't want to be your friend because you're black, I might be a misguided racist, but I am perfectly within my rights.

Similarly, if I OWN a property -- say a house -- I have an Associative Right to let who I want on my property -- and to not let those I don't want on my property -- for whatever reason I choose -- after all it is MY property...

The first amendment guarantees the right to assembly (which is synonmous to the right of association). For this reason, private organizations have the Constitutional right to discriminate based on whatever criteria they so choose -- and in whatever way they so choose. They are called property RIGHTS for a reason, after all.

I don't care if Harvard or Yale or Penn use affirmative action, and in fact I defend their right to do so. To my knowledge, they do. This hurts me, but they are within their rights. It is when something like PSU uses affirmative action -- thus using my tax dollars to fund illegal racism -- that the government has outstepped its rights.

Precisely. Unfortunately, I think this country needs to resort to affirmative action because as she said, there are many racists who are not willing to hire or accept someone of minority to college unless they are forced.

I understand everyone's arguments and how it should be "fair" or equal opportunity for everyone. But discrimination does exist in the college admissions process and employment hiring practices. This is the only way they can think of thus far to promote diversity in college institutions and workplaces.

Also, keep in mind that society has been unfair to minorities for centuries. Affirmative action can help repay the wrongs that have been done to minorities in the past.

-edit-
I revised the following sentence.

I meant to say discrimination. My bad.

Do you have any PROOF that racism exists in public employment? No.

As in, can you prove that, with all else being equal (SAT scores, grades, etc.) and no affirmative action, a black person is more likely to be rejected than a white person at the same public institution? No.

There is nohting more tragic than seeing a beautiful young theory massacred by a gang of brutal facts. Take for example, before ending affirmative action:

Average SAT score for an Asian studnet at UC Berkeley (in 1993): 1254
Average SAT score for a white Student at UC Berkeley in 1993: 1232
Average SAT score for a black student at UC Berkeley in 1993: 952

My statistics come from the Hoover Institution's Scholar Thomas Sowell. The fact is affirmative action held black students to a standard THREE HUNDRED SAT points lower (let's put this into perspective: a black student with a good but not excellent score of 1300 is more competitive than a white student with a perfect score), proving that the only racial discrimination here is against white and Asian students.

California abolished affirmative action in Proposition 209. Following its passage, the average SAT scores among all races were within twenty points of each other -- something easily attributed to statistical variation. This proves that there was in fact NO MEASURABLE RACISM in the University of California admissions process without affirmative action. The only colleges in the country that are racist without affirmative action are places like Bob Jones University, which are private institutions recieving no public money, that have a LEGAL RIGHT to discriminate (upheld by the South Carolina, and later United States Supreme Court), and where no black person would EVER WANT TO GO.

Moreover, it is not enough to show that blacks are "underrepresented". That does NOT prove that the college admissions process itself is racist. If blacks overall have lower achievement rankings, it is logical to assume that they will be underrepresented. This proves that there are UNDERLYING CAUSES, such as socioeconomic differences, fradulent primary education, etc. This does NOT prove that there is racism. I agree that we should deal with root causes of racial inequality, but the fact remains that the root causes do NOT LIE IN RACE ITSELF. Affirmative action will NOT solve them. Affirmative action will just piss more reasonable moderates off, violate civil liberties, and achieve NOTHING.

In fact, affirmative action HURTS blacks as well. By moving underprepared black students into colleges that are academic mismatches, they are harmed. Before California ended affirmative action, black students had a 70% dropout rate at Berkeley and a 75% dropout rate at San Jose University. The black students that should have went to San Jose University and went on to lead successful lives, were recruited to Berkeley by affirmative action where they were turned into artificial failures. It's certainly better to graduate from one's second choice than to flunk out at one's first choice. Affirmative action clearly disregards the needs of over two-thirds of black students so that colleges can create a facade of classroom asthetic. The only people who benefit from affirmative action are a small minority of minority students, but mostly the government and public school system itself, which can use affirmative action as an excuse to continue to expand its powers, most of which are already of dubious legality.

Walter E. Williams, a distinguished black professor from George Mason University: http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj17n1-1.html

Excluding affirmative action, there is no racism in public collegiate admissions.

affirmitive action is bullshit

how can you cure racism WITH reverse racism

PERFECT EXAMPLE:

I am a firefighter. Say we're bringing new people on. 2 people apply for a spot on MY crew. A white and a minority. The white scores HIGHER on all tests, yet the minority is hired b/c of AA

so now I have a guy on MY line, who I have to trust with my LIFE, backing me up in a burning house, who i KNOW is LESS qualified then someone else, but got the job b/c of the color of their skin

^^^ PLEASE explain how that is fair

nice.

hm.. i read the replies but im still a bit unsure wut affirmitive action is..
explain, som1? :]

and yeah that5 wouldn't be considered racism

Why not?

Racism, by definition, is valuing race as a quality... it never specifies how. Affirmative action is definitionally racist... you can't argue that it's not without changing the English language. The only thing you can argue is whether it is GOOD racism or BAD racism.

and how not
they passed on a white guy bc of the color of his skin

1) its racism. people dont like to say it is, but it is. What would happen if they had passed on a black man who scored better to pick a white guy? gee, jesse jackson and his brainwashed army would be all over it
2) its wrong

AA if quite racist. it uses to race to determine if people get jobs, or get into college.

i belive onenonly101 is either in denial or ignoring all the evidence.

all i know is i'm applying for college as a mexican.
or going to a california university.

You say its racist yet you still utilize it to your advantage.. so you have no problem with its racist aspects?

they're not going to get rid of it, even after all the media and stuff.

so why not use it to my advantage?

Because it's totally sleazy. You can, if you want. Just know that you are contributing to the system. What if white people said: "We aren't going to end racism no matter what we do, so why not take advantage of it?" Affirmative action would be the least of the worries that minorities have today.

I know I complain a lot about how we aren't living up to American ideals... but in the end, you can't blame hte government, or big business, or anything... you have to blame the people: let's face it, we just don't have integrity any more.

and so it shows.

everyone agrees it would be wrong for me to register as a different race to get AA points.

but then why is it right for people to get AA points for race anyways?

^ you are a big hypocrite, if you are against it don't use it.
I'm not against it so there fore i will use it. i am going to fill out those college applications saying that i am a Nigerian American female, and won't have any shame doing it because shoot it is helping me.

Affirmative action isn't racist because it isn't saying that one race is superior to any other. Also like i said before it is not just about race so therefore you cannot say affirmative action is racist

I'm not in denial because have read up on what i am saying. I haven't cared for what you have said because you have incorperated your own opinion into it without knowing what it is fully. I have read the basis of Affirmative Action and concluded what i have from that

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.


unless you are re-writing the dictionary anytime soon , see #2. Thats exactly what AA does, it prejudices a favoritisim towards minorities. The first half of number one is true also. If AA didnt believe race accounted for difference in ability, there would be no need for it in the first place.

Also, please answer my FF example above. Id love to hear your thoughts into the fairness of that.

No not if i do not beleive it is discriminatory. and ya'll keep forgeting the enitre program of Affirmative Action cannot be racist seeing as it does not only pertain to race