servers are being weird.

anyways:

i'd like to take a sort of side track in this debate:

plan B, a.k.a. the abortion drug.

when taken it prevents a zygote from implanting in the uterus, and it fails to develop.

is this immoral as well?

i agree with him. ^

i still think your name is justin and i haven't yet read anything that said it wasn't when i said this so i'll go with justin.

abortion's wrong...it doesn't matter how small or undeveloped it is..it's still living...

so a blastocyte of 8 cells is still alive?

you kill more cells than that when you get a cut.

what if the birth could affect the mother's health? wouldn't you rather save a preexisting life than a not yet born one?

I'll again make my case...
A Feb. 13th edition (2004) of my local paper, the Kansas City Star published this editorial statistic:

"Of all abortions committed from Jan. 1990 [when clinics began logging causes of abortions] to Dec. 2003:

86% Unwanted pregnancy (female/parental choice)
12% Health risks (to mother)
1% Fatal health risks/deformalities (child)
1% Rape cases"

Read the print in bold.

Some 10,000+ abortions have happened in that time period.

Allow the whopping 14% of mothers with legitimate abortion reasons to have them.
Arrest/fine the 86% that needlessly murder children every week.

if you take away %86 of thier clients, then abortion clinics will have to close. this means the other %14 can't get an abortion anyways.

prove it's killing children. Last time i checked, a fetus was still a fetus, and a child had been born...

well the 14% of motehr with legitmate cases for abortion should be able to get them at the states expense

and maybe the 86% who didnt want it had legitaate reasons. you have NO right to judge them, it is their decison.

All sentiment for the mother aside, the fact still remains:

Thousands of first/second trimester abortions happen weekly, most of which I can't but wince at because the fetus hasn't developed much (despite the fact that its heart is still beating).

My 'beef' with abortion is the fact that third trimester abortions are becoming commonplace. Yeah -- infant half out of the birth canal, its scalp is cut open, and the brains are vaccuumed through a tube.

As well, the statistic stands.

The United States federal legislature isn't stupid. We've never shaped laws to aid the moot percentage. I agree, the 14% in my figure should have every right to an abortion. It's called circumstantial law...

But when a freshman in college has a wild party at the lake one weekend, and comes home knocked up, I have no sympathy.

Quite frankly, if we're going to make laws to pamper people with that much stupidity, we have one piss poor Congress.

well; then it'd be an extra 860 unwanted babies a year.

adoption is good; but it's not the best. and plus; can it handle that many more people? are that many more babies going to be adopted?

exactly, what about over population, if people got rid of UNBORN children they DIDNT WANT then that would be helping overpopulation. Not by much though... but still helping.

Oh, good logic. Let's off all of the mentally handicapped, disabled, and old people, too.

What a horrid, skewed reason to kill unborn fetuses...

ok. good point. money's not a reason to kill them.

but then again... it kinda requires considering them alive.

so when do you think a fetus is considered alive?

All children have the right to live and their are millions of people all over the world who want children but can't have them because of reasons beyond their control.


OH, and BTW, they said the child isn't alive if they arn't breathing....If I hold your mouth closed, and your nose, and your not breathing but your heart is beating, your alive, right?

I'm pro-life, pro-choice. Women should have a choice, but I hate abortion...

because of her

vvvvvv

agreed....except for pro-choice.....just pro-life.

I totally agree w/ u on this one man.
Its not right to deny a child of life (even if it isnt born) just because u screwed up. If you know that your not ready 2 be a parent, use birth control. If you dont, then u obviously wouldnt mind being a parent. End of story.

And just because the rapee had 2 go through a traumatic experience, how do u think she will feel when they are killing the life in her? Its just not right. I mean, every one has a choice, and everyone's entitled to their own opinions... this is just my side of the story.

I'm really, really on the edge about pro-choice, but I know that some women have to have an abortion to save themselves...but not many...thats why I'm on the edge.. :-/

how can you say it's not right for rape victims to have a choice? they weren't planning to have a kid, they could be 14 years old (even if not, no matter what age) and you expect them to have a kid as an 8th grader/freshman in high school just because it would be one more life? yes, they did go through a traumatic experience, and having a kid when you didn't want to with the genes of a rapist inside it would be even MORE of a traumatic experience.

the mother is still a child, basically. there would be no way she would be able to care for another child, so then what? dump the blame on her parents? make them take care of it and pay for it? they have jobs and things to do, they weren't planning for another kid either, just as the girl wasn't planning to have a kid at all.

would you not rather save one person's life from being miserable, or have two miserable lives, just so one POTENTIAL child is born?

oh oh i have an idea!

let's make abortion illegal so everyone who didn't want the baby can have it anyways and bribe the doctor to break the neck and call it a still-born.

wonderful idea, don't you say?

apparently, i've posted here before.. but i don't feel like going through all 18 pages. basically, i'm against abortion ethically; however, there are many detriments to limiting abortion (dangerous attempts at aborting one's own fetus, etc.), which i'm sure people have mentioned previously in this thread. also, in our contemporary society, people tend to value the freedom of the living to choose over the freedom of the unborn to live. so going along with the general consensus, i doubt that there will be much abortion policy reform in the near future. a greater issue would be providing sterile, accessible abortion clinics to women around the world. this was actually a topic for Model UN, but we never got to it because of human trafficking.

There's always adoption. Your forgetting that small factor.

QUOTE

There's always adoption.  Your forgetting that small factor.

the trauma of carrying a child, being scorned by peers, and the pain of actually delivering the child is often unbearable, even unthinkable, for many teen mothers. think about it: for 9 months, you would be carrying an unwanted baby around, vomiting, feeling all that discomfort.. just to give your baby away? and high schools these days aren't always accepting/supportive when it comes to pregnant teens.

yes, if its rape then abortion is fine...but if they dont want it just because then I think abortion is bad.
abortion is bad either way....but if it was rape I understand.

do you know how tramautic it is to have the baby and then have to give it away? i don't think so.




-----------------
there are soo many other reasons why people choose to have an abortion, not just rape and harmful to the mother. the government should have NO say in whether or not your reason is good enough.

I actually probably do. I look into my daughter's eyes and I can't imagine handing her over to someone, never to see her again.. I still don't agree with abortion...

but why would you suggest to a young woman to have the baby and then give it away?

if anyone wants to read through this all, my entire argument, as well as the other side, is in this conversation:

make what you will of it.

alluring despair (3:59:12 PM): Haha go Sammi...even though I don't agree with you. x]
hi i am sammi (3:59:25 PM): ..rape victims kathleen?
hi i am sammi (3:59:27 PM): raaaape?
alluring despair (4:01:06 PM): Still, why punish the future human being? I mean, I know it's not the woman's fault, either, but still...everything deserves the right to live. Also, I've seen statistics...there...aren't that many abortions due to rape, anyways. It's either going to be yes-abortions or no-abortions in this country. If we continue it just for rape victims, the 80%+ teenagers that always get abortions will be able to continue that.
hi i am sammi (4:01:58 PM): yea i guess but i'd rather have one somewhat happy life than two miserable lives, even if for the sake of a life that hasn't even begun yet
alluring despair (4:02:14 PM): Happy life?
alluring despair (4:02:24 PM): Even with that abortion, the woman will be scarred from the rape no matter what.
hi i am sammi (4:02:33 PM): that's why i said somewhat.
alluring despair (4:02:44 PM): Oh I missed that - sorry.
alluring despair (4:02:47 PM): Still.
alluring despair (4:03:35 PM): There are even cases when the mother grows to love the child...as in...it's somewhat of a relief from the horrid memories of the rape itself.
hi i am sammi (4:03:39 PM): but having a kid she doesn't want to have, and going through all the shizzle at school about her being pregnant, etc..will constitute in an even more miserable life. and the kid will be miserable, too, cause there won't be enough money to get it all the things it wants, the mother won't have enough time to spend with it..
hi i am sammi (4:03:56 PM): yea but look at the kids born from rape victims..or any young person, for that matter.
alluring despair (4:04:02 PM): Besides, adoption is an option - there are plenty of families who can't be pregnant - why not give them a chance to have a child of their own?
hi i am sammi (4:04:37 PM): they're more than likely worse off psychologically, mentally, socially..maybe even physically, than children born to a parent that's able to take care of them.
hi i am sammi (4:04:50 PM): there's not even enough parents to take the kids in adoption now
alluring despair (4:05:04 PM): cause there won't be enough money to get it all the things it wants, the mother won't have enough time to spend with it.. Not all kids are selfish like that. 0_o People live like that...even when there wasn't a decision on whether him being born or not.
hi i am sammi (4:05:28 PM): wants/needs...clothes, food
alluring despair (4:05:37 PM): Still, nonetheless, you're letting go of the fact that...wait let me find the statistic - it was in the thread.
alluring despair (4:06:00 PM): 86% of abortions will continue to be simply "unwanted". There's a difference between that and "unneeded".
hi i am sammi (4:06:00 PM): well yes, but what about the minority that has legitamite reasons?
hi i am sammi (4:06:55 PM): if the mother is not in a position to take care or a baby, or even have a baby (at a young age), there's a strong likelihood that the kid will turn out to be scarred from neglect and unsufficient materials and such..like my neice.
hi i am sammi (4:07:00 PM): there's a majority of that too, so..
alluring despair (4:07:15 PM): Legitimate reasons? Like I said, this decision is black or white. There will either be abortions or no abortions. By supporting the minority, you let all of those slutty teenagers' dreams come true. Besides, the country's run under a "majority" rule...so if you're only looking at it by the majority perspective, once again - it's black or white.
hi i am sammi (4:07:24 PM): i'd rather have less miserable kids than more not-even-yet-born kids.
alluring despair (4:07:59 PM): And...those kids - as any other kid in this country - has options available to him for him to live a better life. Especially when he turns eighteen. There's things such as welfare and whatnot.
hi i am sammi (4:10:12 PM): like, there's a kid who used to be in my school - derek - he only had one t shirt and two pairs of his pants because his mother had him when she was 14 years old and she had no way to get money..she ran away when she found out she was pregnant because she was afraid her parents would get mad, and she kept getting more and more down in the money scale of things..the more she had to pay for, the less she could get. she couldn't get a job because she had no way to get there (since she couldn't drive), so by the time derek was in my grade, they could barely afford food.
hi i am sammi (4:10:41 PM): all the kids made fun of him and he was always so miserable from all that..kids can be MEAN.
hi i am sammi (4:11:07 PM): i would rather have not seen him so sad and not have to go through that than to see him like that every day..
hi i am sammi (4:11:14 PM): and i'm sure the mother was miserable as well.
hi i am sammi (4:11:39 PM): she was on birth control duing that time, too.
hi i am sammi (4:11:59 PM): it just happened that she had taken it later in the day when she woke up and she got pregnant before she could take it
hi i am sammi (4:12:17 PM): sometimes, even if you use birth control, or condoms, you still get pregnant.
hi i am sammi (4:13:18 PM): even if she gave it to adoption, there's barely even enough parents to suffice the amount of adopted kids as it is, and they end up growing up in an adoption home
hi i am sammi (4:14:48 PM): personally, i would rather see less miserable lives, even if it makes unborn babies not be born..cause again, if you're looking at majorities, 70% or so of abortions happen during the 1st and 2nd stages of abortion, when the potential baby hasn't even developed into a human yet. it's just potential.
hi i am sammi (4:15:01 PM): you can't kill a human if it's not a human yet.
hi i am sammi (4:15:36 PM): the potential baby could potentially find a cure for cancer, but so could the next kidl
hi i am sammi (4:15:47 PM): i dunno. that's just what goes on in my head..
alluring despair (4:16:46 PM): hi i am sammi (5:11:18 PM): sometimes, even if you use birth control, or condoms, you still get pregnant. <- And...what if that person had a purpose in life? As in, he were meant to be born?
hi i am sammi (4:17:37 PM): i don't really believe in fate. things just happen. there's no reason behind it.
alluring despair (4:17:53 PM): Also, you must realize that this is a privilege - millions of women in other parts of the world live their lives with the child...heck, many of them still have it if it's life-threatening.
hi i am sammi (4:18:17 PM): and that's what i don't want happening here..
hi i am sammi (4:18:22 PM): if i got pregnant tomorrow
hi i am sammi (4:18:31 PM): i would want to have the choice to have an abortion.
alluring despair (4:18:47 PM): No, my point was the fact that in America, we don't even realize that...I mean...they have rapes and defections WAY more than they do here.
alluring despair (4:19:03 PM): It's almost unheard of to have an "unwanted" baby...people are so ashamed to have a child out of wedlock.
alluring despair (4:19:05 PM): Especially in Asia.
alluring despair (4:19:14 PM): And here we are...rising up the abortion rates.
alluring despair (4:19:29 PM): And...what about that future child's decision?
hi i am sammi (4:19:57 PM): he may end up wanting to die, you never know.
hi i am sammi (4:19:59 PM): it's all by chance.
hi i am sammi (4:20:51 PM): and here, it's not an ubsurd thing to have a child unmarried..it is strange, yes..and not widely accepted. it's still shamed upon here, just not on as grand of a scale.
alluring despair (4:21:07 PM): I know this sounds a bit condescending, but...I'm sure he'll end up killing himself if the pain were that bad. There are plenty of worse things than being poor. Like...being poor and having parents beat you every night. Or being poor without the opportunity to have an education. There's a million other things. I've lived through poverty...
hi i am sammi (4:21:15 PM): that's why people are pushing abstinence..but i know i'm not gonna do that.
hi i am sammi (4:22:00 PM): yes, and most of abusive parents had the kid at a younger age..
hi i am sammi (4:22:07 PM): especially the dads.
alluring despair (4:22:52 PM): The girls who have the children when they don't want to (the majority of them, anyways) don't have a father around because they leave anyway...that wouldn't be the case for a child in this situation.
hi i am sammi (4:23:12 PM): women can be abusive too..like this chick in wet seal..
hi i am sammi (4:23:24 PM): she started cussing out her kid, and her kid was like 3
hi i am sammi (4:23:31 PM): and the woman looked 18-19
hi i am sammi (4:23:48 PM): and the kid touched a necklace and the woman hit her upside the head
alluring despair (4:25:23 PM): Child abuse prevention laws are in place - in order to stop these things, anyways. Once again, because those are in place, there are laws that limit these things from happening. There'll always be that low percent of people...I mean, our country accomodates the majority. Or at least they see what they can do to solve a problem with the majority doing something questionnably wrong.
alluring despair (4:25:36 PM): One moment. J'ai faim. =P

ayyyye that is probably the part of the conversation where i would have gotten ROAR.


not all teenagers who have sex are slutty, therefore not all pregnant teenagers who want abortion are having their dreams come true. it is actually a nightmare, even for the slutty ones.

What about moms that had a abortion and want a baby later in life... Should they be allowed to have one?

Because it would be better than to kill it and give it no chance at life.

i think yes, but i don't feel really strongly about it. the statistic i read said that 70% of those who get an abortion express a desire to have a child later in life.

but a chance at what sort of life?

one with foster families who never really love them?

life with an adopted parent, who might be abusive?

AGAIN...

I've argued this stupid subject for nearly a decade, it always bounces back, and forth, and my solution always comes out on top.

You write a circumstantial law for abortion clinics to abide by on grounds of foreclosure.

Legitimate causality polls for abortion have been taken since the early 90's. Abortion clinics will still continue causality testing..

12 year old girl gets raped by a psychopath: abortion is allowed, pending the parents and child want it.

19 year old college freshman has a wild weekend at the beach: abortion is disallowed, sorry...

If you're too ignorant and racy, and need sex that bad that you can't use foresight and prevent something unwanted, get over it.

Again, if we're going to shape laws to pamper people with that much stupidity, we have one piss poor Congress.

13. THE UK has the second-highest rate of teen pregnancies in the developed world, behind the US. There are 30.8 births for every 1,000 teenagers. Teenage mothers are twice as likely to live in poverty.

thank you mindy, for proving my point.

this is why i don't want abortion to be outlawed.

The sad statistic is that over 85% of these teenage mothers could have avoided said poverty.

Sorry, but we don't pamper stupidity...

Again, stupidity shouldn't be rewarded...

At what point do we stop, and say 'enough'? A woman who's had 10 abortions? 20? 50?

abortions are not great; but i stil believe the choice should be offered.

however: to reduce the abortions done because the mother just didn't want the child::

1. re-introduce safe sex programs at schools to compliment abstenince programs, to reduce pregnacies.

2. require people who want an abortion to learn about what really happens, show them the ultrasound of the heartbeat, etc.

3. promote the use of contraceptives for those who do not want pregnacies. make things like condoms and the plan B pills easily obtainable to all high schoolers and college students.

that would reduce the unwanted pregnacys, and therefore abortions due to that, don't you think?

you don't have to outlaw abortion to reduce the amount of 'lives' 'killed'

You can add all of that good stuff, and outlaw abortions for those that don't deserve them.

Double-whammy.

i agree about the college kids, but what about high schoolers?

they're at an age to make mistakes... should not they be allowed the 'second chance' that an abortion offers?

maybe girls under 18 can get one abortion, after that no more?

eh.. abortion. I'm for it. I just see it as, no matter what the reason, this is not your baby/fetus/glomp of tissue. This is the mothers. She will decide, not you for her. You don't like abortion? Ok, great that's completly fine. Don't get one simple as that.. And if it could be the next brain surgen or president or whatever? Pffft. What about all the abortions that have happened? Or when guys ejacualte? I mean.. hey, if the next president was some super peace lovin genius I think our chances are slim either way. Basically.. what's it matter if it's not your kid?

Alexander Fleming, the doctor that invented penicillin wasn't your kid, either.

He was almost aborted.

any other kid could have found penicillin too.

i pretty much agree with you, on the fact that some mothers don't deserve the choice, but i'd rather have a choice for those that do than have no choice at all.

Sure, someone else might have found penicillin. Probably centuries later, after millions of lives had been lost because of its absence, but yes.

Again, no one seems to pay attention to the fact that I've said time, and time again that the law would be circumstantial, ergo, there won't be 'no choice at all'.

Those people that deserve the abortions will rightfully get them.

yes, but now the question is, who deserves an abortion?

The causality tests for the past decade have defined abortion circumstances as unwanted pregnancy, inability to care for child, health risks (to mother), abuse/rape/forced conception, health risks (to child).

I believe the appropriate circumstances are the latter three.

and that would be where we disagree.

i think that in the case of unwanted children, anyone under 18 should be able to have one abortion, but not a second.

why? for the same reason there is juvenille court. because you make mistakes when you're young.

I'm willing to bend there, but the damage has already been done.

Example:

"Kendra Davis, age 20, Detroit, Michigan. 17 abortions on file."

Does that not even 'wow' you?

that is quite a lot...

which is why i suggest that there's a limit of one.

you should get a second chance, but not another one after that.

If it were to eliminate this 17 nonsense, I could respect that.

yea, i do agree with you, i'm not saying i disagree..

but if it comes down to all or none, i'd rather go with all being able to have a choice, is what i'm saying.