^ I don't see how he can argue all the points you just made.

he can, becuase he thinks his beliefs should become law, while disenting beliefs should be eradicated.

whilest i, and others, think that people should be able to practice thier own beliefs.

^ Amen. Err.. not that I'm religious..

"Oh relax and stop fantasizing. That's too overdramatic.. "Really is it?i dont think so,your just being really,you know what,im not even going to say the word but to replace that foul word,i would say your being ignorant.Because no its not fantasizing its true hun.Its like your saying it will never happen.Which it well and when it does i hope you feel so damn stupid.

-"I don't think you have :) Because if you had, you wouldn't have that opinion."See thats why i called you a b-tch,you dont know my life so you cannot verify whether i had sex or not so dont even go to that point with me,because its disgusting for someone to come out and post it on a website that has a bunch of people on it so everyone can know your buisness,thats disgusting.

-"Doctors are doctors for a reason. They're not morons - they won't leave a "tool" inside of you. What the hell is that? Again, don't be so overdramatic."See mamita,you should really grow the hell up and stop being ignorant,because it already happened to a man and he went on the health channel or one those channels thats related to news.His skins was like literally becoming into a big whole.It was tearing so much and he had so many holes and a bad yellowish rash.And thats why you should wake up and see reality because many doctors do make mistakes like that.

-"We don't "complain", we simply STATE that you cannot know. Jesus.. I have to repeat myself over and over.."I am not even going to respond to that because what i have to say its just really really b-tchy and nasty.

-"Now you've gone too far. You're violating the WOMAN'S right of her OWN body. You can't do that.. Please read the article I provided for you from the site. I don't think you quite understood what it meant. And sure, the man made the baby with her, but the man doesn't have to carry the baby for 9 months, does he? That's just the way it is."]

How the hell do you f-king figure im violating the womans right.In this case f-k the woman because she aint letting me keep my kid i had to bang her to make?!How the f-k can you say that?!Thats breaking the mans saying,he had to make the baby with her,so now he doesnt even get to see his baby first learn how to say mama or dada?Bull shit taylor bull shit.What you said makes me hope you get something stuck in your body if the doctor ever operates you.Im sorry but its true.That just pressed my thats a no no button.

-"Let me tell you a story. I heard this on the news two weeks ago. There is a woman, I forgot where - but I do know that it's illegal for her to abort there. The doctors have found that she has tumour, but she's pregnat as well. She made a request to abort so that she can begin treatment, but it was denied.. and now she's dying."I do not know what a tumour is but im sorry she is dying.She must be stupid,she can take the baby out,i dont know who did THIS but a woman couldnt make it to a hospital so she went in to labor and she cut her self open with a butcher knife and took the baby out her self.That lady can do it her self =].But if she does die,god forbid,may she rest is peace.

-"It's my choice to believe something over the net, and I don't think I can believe that you watched those kids like an actual parent and that you took care of them financially, like a parent. And I don't just mean buying them candy. Don't argue.. it's my choice to believe what I want."Hah thats funny you know why,i have proof,Babypeachlr is my bff,she can tell you her self.GO ahead ask her,she sees me,and another friend of mine on here sees me taking care of the baby non stop.Go ahead ask them,they my proof.Also what you just said,its like me,i can choose to believe your a hoe,true or not true?Since you choose not to believe that i did not take care of my cousina nd my baby sister.And i still do,And i dont just buy them candy,i buy them food they have to eat,i buy them everything so check your self.So until you stop with that whole "i choose"crap then i will stop choosing to believe your a hoe.You make that verification about me and ill make one about you >=[.

"Would you still place the fetus' "rights" above the woman? "

Ok i get you on that point,but that doesnt change how i feel,whether she is dying or not,because if she wasnt then she would of kept the baby,correct me if im wrong and then after as a mother she would do anything for a baby and die for it as well.So it goes same way whether baby is born or not.

-"Doctors are doctors for a reason. They're not morons - they won't leave a "tool" inside of you. What the hell is that? Again, don't be so overdramatic."Im not the one who is being over dramatic,you are.You just cant handle the truth in my point of view.THIS is life,doctors aint perfect people,they make that mistake or did it on purpose.

"mentality is just a frame of mind. you can simply say, "if i was pregnant, i would feel stressed, anxious, nervous, upset...etc."

but you wouldn't really actually ever know what it feels like to be in a pregnant woman's shoes. you can summarize the gist of it with common run of the mill emotions. you can feel what it's like to be a man or a father taking care of a pregnant woman and being part of the process but you could never feel what it's like to be pregnant. i said a man can know the basics of the physical changes (anyone could if they researched it) and the basics of the emotions/state of mind a woman goes through.

i could say that if i got kicked in the balls, i would feel immense pain... but that means nothing compared to what guys really go through, wouldn't it? i could say i would be angry at the person, but that's too simple.

once again, a man would NEVER know what it is to be pregnant. i'm not saying a man isn't important, so why do you insist on arguing that you understand and know what pregnant women feel? why do insist on taking over the woman's part of reproduction? don't say you aren't because you are constantly arguing that a man can feel what it feels like to be pregnant. like you actually can experience the woman's part of the cycle of life.

get over it. i never said the father wasn't important but being pregnant and carrying the child is solely a female's role and only she could experience that situation. all a man can say is that he can imagine it by basing it on basics that generally everyone can feel.

one example that a man would never experience pregnancy, physically or emotionally or mentally, is that after a pregnancy, a woman can go through Post Partum Depression. it's a overhaul of hormones, emotions, and mentality.

some people don't want to get their tubes tied because they can't have children. tube tying is very dangerous and messy. why don't men get vasotomies? it's much safer and they still can have sex.

there is an abortion pill. what i meant by drug companies getting sued is that there have been over the counter pills that had caused miscarriages. it was all an accident. if we gave fetuses rights, drug companies could be charged with murder or manslaughter.

you would place the fetus's rights above the woman's? then, i whole heartedly feel sorry for any girl you go out with. god forbid, if you two make a mistake and something happens, you would value the fetus' rights above the woman's? it easy for you to do that because you DON'T HAVE TO CARRY THE DAMN THING FOR MONTHS.

that 'killing future scientists or saviors' is a bullshit theory and you should be ashamed to even use it. those what if situations only apply if it was feasible. and hey, we also allowed future criminals (which is more likely since men born to teenager mothers have a higher chance of ending up in jail) and evil people. and yes, it would screw over the government. they would have to enforce the abortion law and spend money that is already stretched too thin by Katrina and the war and various other expenses. they would also have to deal with the aftermath of forcing women into a corner where they do not have control of their bodies anymore. the government would have to deal with higher suicide rates and more mental disorders that women would suffer from because of the stress and anxiety.

funny how men are so willing to do this when women are the ones that would bear the blunt of the punishment.

i love children. i do. i want to be an ob-gyn. but i am pro-choice. i want abortion to still remain legal but have strict guidelines (such as a waiting period, counseling, limits on how many abortions woman can get).

if a doctor who was grossly stupid gave a woman a poor diagnosis and the baby was lost... couldn't he be charged with manslaughter as well as neglience?

sure, a woman could die from an abortion as well as childbirth, but that's the choice the woman should make herself. she knows the risks and she should accept the consequences."

-"mentality is just a frame of mind. you can simply say, "if i was pregnant, i would feel stressed, anxious, nervous, upset...etc."Yes he could.

"but you wouldn't really actually ever know what it feels like to be in a pregnant woman's shoes. you can summarize the gist of it with common run of the mill emotions. you can feel what it's like to be a man or a father taking care of a pregnant woman and being part of the process but you could never feel what it's like to be pregnant. i said a man can know the basics of the physical changes (anyone could if they researched it) and the basics of the emotions/state of mind a woman goes through."

OMFG,your going to make me rip out my hair,I sware,thats what im trying to say!damnit,do you see me posting honeslty "oh im a man i actually know what it feels like to be pregnant"No im saying he can have the idea,and when you have the idea,its like you can feel it.Not that you can,its LIKE you can.

-"some people don't want to get their tubes tied because they can't have children. tube tying is very dangerous and messy. why don't men get vasotomies? it's much safer and they still can have sex."See i didnt know men could do that,i didnt even know what that was,but now that you mentioned it,to us men out here,If you dont want your love to kill you baby,get vastomies like she said.Or what ever that is.I would reccomend that sure,and just like having an abortion,or any other surgery,there really isnt any 100% saying that you will survive it.

-"that 'killing future scientists or saviors' is a bullshit theory and you should be ashamed to even use it. those what if situations only apply if it was feasible. and hey, we also allowed future criminals (which is more likely since men born to teenager mothers have a higher chance of ending up in jail) and evil people. and yes, it would screw over the government. they would have to enforce the abortion law and spend money that is already stretched too thin by Katrina and the war and various other expenses. they would also have to deal with the aftermath of forcing women into a corner where they do not have control of their bodies anymore. the government would have to deal with higher suicide rates and more mental disorders that women would suffer from because of the stress and anxiety."NO i am not ashamed to use it,it isnt a theory they are acutally working on it.Also you think women only have stress or anxiety?No actually they dont,some men have to walk down the street having to be afraid saying "am i going to die,is someone going to jump me?"because its true some do.

-"i love children. i do. i want to be an ob-gyn. but i am pro-choice. i want abortion to still remain legal but have strict guidelines (such as a waiting period, counseling, limits on how many abortions woman can get).

if a doctor who was grossly stupid gave a woman a poor diagnosis and the baby was lost... couldn't he be charged with manslaughter as well as neglience?

sure, a woman could die from an abortion as well as childbirth, but that's the choice the woman should make herself. she knows the risks and she should accept the consequences."FInally,may god bless your soul for saying that man.Thats what im saying.Correct me if im wrong but taylor said its the womans choice and she thinks it was nescesary to get an abortion and for women to have that right,but she made it sound like only child birth would kill the woman.No it wont.Thats why im am grace-ful for you saying that.You read that taylor?!Huh?!You can die from both!So stop with that little..........ugh act.But seriouslly what i mean about really when i say abortion is heartless,stupid and cruel,its because one i still dont agree with it,and that some women just do it,so they wont have a baby.Thats true as well,they wanna go be grown and have sex but when they have a baby inside them,they dont want it,they just want to kill it.Theres adoption.

[[note:some of this i typed when i was mad so if some of it dont make since sorry,but dont say something that doesnt make since to you when i know it makes since to say that ^__^]]

False dilemma. The choice isn't between having sex or never having sex; we also have the choice to use our sexual drives responsibly.

Doubtful because at the time they made and marketed the drugs, it wasn't prohibited. And let's not defend the poor, benevolent, and thankless drug companies.

And why shouldn't fetuses have the same rights as any other human?



So let's look at the situation: A man and a woman have sex and commit the "mistake" of conceiving a child.

What are the possible solutions?

A) Give birth to the child.
B) Get an abortion.

What rights are infringed upon?

A) The mother's "right" to convenience is infringed upon for nine months, leading up to a painful and lengthy delivery.
B) The child's right to live is infringed upon. Forever.

So now we see that it is far too simple to describe the situation as putting a child's rights above the mothers; the rights for each of the individuals are different. This has precedent in our society.

My right to a lawful and orderly society overrides your right to free speech should you decide to walk into a movie theater and shout, "FIRE!" In this case, the child's right to be alive overrides any other of its mother's "rights" to not be inconvenienced by pregnancy or go through the pain of labor.

I don't pretend to know what it is like to be pregnant or give birth, but I'm going to assume that it isn't worse than being denied the very basic right to be alive. If I was wrong, I think you'd have many more pregnant women committing suicide (because obviously they'd rather die than give birth, right?).



What about the pure emotional trauma a father could go through knowing his child's life has been terminated? Emotional wounds can run far deeper and their pain can linger far longer than any physical trauma.



What is the situation you are referring to?

Whether you use them responsibly or not, a child can still be the result of sex.



The fetus does not have rights prior to a woman, so how can it be denied rights when it doesn't have them?

You are wrong, because abortion is legal. Therefore, pregnat women aren't committing suicide because of being pregnat.. well I don't know for sure, but I would assume most of them aren't.



When a man isn't ready to have a kid, I doubt there would be so much "trauma". Otherwise, if the couple is married and the woman decides to abort because she just doesn't want to have a kid at the moment, it would indeed be pretty selfish.

yes doctors do make mistakes like that but those are really rare cases and the doctors were punished accordingly. when surgeries do happen, you aren't attended to by one doctor. the Operating Room is full with specialty nurses and doctors. also, there is one main, head doctor but there is always an assitant doctor to help him. more or less, one of these people will keep count or spot if something goes wrong. it could happen, since doctors are still human, but if most doctors are competent and wouldn't make sure a hugh error.




once again, it makes me angry that you would resort to cursing and disrespecting Angelina Taylor. maybe she was assuming of your situation but you said you hoped that her life would be in danger just because she disagrees with you on a Debate forum.

and...maybe this would put this is presciptive from the women's point of view. you are with someone you love but something happened... the condom broke or the birth control pills don't work. and you're pregnant. and abortion was already banned and your forced to carry the baby. let's say you honestly, desperately don't want to. would you, as a human, knows what it's like to lose control of you body? a woman who didn't want to be pregnant is being forced by the government to keep it and let the parasite (which essentially is what a fetus is. it grows within the mother's womb and absorbs some nutrients and uses her blood) grow? to have no control over your body and have to hear some outside force dictate what she has to do?

you know this reminds me of? the holocaust. i'm not saying, and i would never say, that being pregnant compares to what anyone suffered during the holocuast. but... people from the holocaust were branded like cattle and forced to have mysterious, harmful shots. the holocaust sufferers had NO control over their body. that left a mental scar along with the entire experience.

a person retains their rights as long as they don't violate or infringe on others. in abortion, women get the precedent because they are a citizen already and they already have used their rights. the fetus has failed to become a citizen yet and has never experience rights before.

times like this, i really wished that a man could become pregnant. maybe when you actually been in that situation, you wouldn't be so quick to agree for a ban on abortion.



ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

you are asking a woman to perform surgery on herself? the woman has a tumor (an abnormal cell growth) that would continue to grow along with the fetus and the woman would become weak. because they refused to allow her have an abortion, they potentially setenced both the mother and the baby to death.

THE WOMAN IS STUPID BECAUSE SHE WON'T REMOVE IT HERSELF? WTF IS THAT? ...i'm not going to even acknowledge it with an intelligent comment.




you are wrong.

there are parents out there who abuse and hate their kids. the kids grow up miserable and emotional/physically/mentally scarred. you increase the risk of bad mothers/fathers when you force the people into becoming parents when they don't want to. if the parents didn't one the child in the first place, what makes you think they would die for it? the bond only applies if the child is wanted and is cared for and loved. so maybe the parents won't physically abuse the child. more than likely the child would just feel that his/her parents are cold and distant.

i'm not saying that would happen 100% of the time. but there's a 50/50 chance of the parents not accepting the child.



but you're using the 'idea of being pregnant' to argue that a man can know what it kinda feels like to be pregnant and it isn't that bad and that's why a woman shouldn't get an abortion.

actually... i'm a woman. society and biologically... i'm prepared to have children if i want. i know what to expect. besides, i have a higher chance of experiencing being pregnant than YOU will.

you have an idea what it was like to be in the holocaust but you would never insult someone who actually was there by saying, "i understand what happened. i know what it feels like."

no because all you know is the stories from media and movies and first hand accounts. all you can feel is simple, vague emotions that you think someone might feel in that situation.

i know what it feels like to die because i have an idea.... it's scary and it hurts.

i'm sure that in reality... it's so much more different and dramatic.



i'm not saying only women suffer from anxiety and stress.

i'm saying that coupled with the anxiety/stress and the complete loos of control over their body and their desperation to not be pregnant, women would develop mental disorders or do something harmful to themselves and their babies.

i'm saying you should be ashamed to use that theory because it has no backing to it and it's useless. if you want your argument to actually have some substance, do not use it. because i can very well say that women have aborted future criminals/evil masterminds.





adoption like many people stated before... is actually a very flimsy situation.

if the child is actually adopted, hurray! but what if it can't get adopted? than it grows up in the system... as the child grows up, the likelyhood that he/she adopted lowers. and children who grow up in the system, aren't exactly... the happiest. also, our child services are already stretched too thin. in new york city, they barely have enough resources (or they don't want to), to check up on the families and ensure the safety of the children.




women go through both physical trauma and physical.

they do not have control of their own bodies. and they have to live with that feeling for months. they're in a desperate situation and at a loss for what to do.

if i was like, you have to get 2432324 piercings and i actually forced you to that that... you would leave with both emotional/mental/physical scars.





most women don't choose abortion because of the stupid inconvience. they do it because they can't care for the children or they aren't ready.

if i got pregnant, i would choose abortion riite away. i'm a senior in high school and going on the college. i cannot care for the baby. i would regret hurting my own flesh and blood but i would definitely hate the child if i gave birth to it.

there i was honest.

but many pregnant women want to give birth. being pregnant and giving birth is a beautiful experience but only if the woman accepts it and wants it.

OBVIOUSLY? no! because the fetus has no rights! the government has not acknowledged the fetus rights when it's within the legal limits of abortions.

a woman could be charged with neglience if she ignored the doctors orders and caused a miscarriage. not only is she charged for neglecting her UNBORN child, she also has to deal with the trauma of losing it.

ARGH! i really wish men could be pregnant.

First of all, I'm not even going to bother replying the rest of your post, because 1: your grammar sucks and I don't want to do this to myself again, and 2: you're starting to get too offensive, and I simply refuse to waste my time with you.

And I'm sorry, but how can you have the nerve to call her stupid? You obviously don't know what it's like to live in a third world country and to have no money, so I just suggest you shut up. Why don't you take a knife, cut your penis out and see how much that would hurt? You're disgusting.

Just one more thing. I take it you "forgot" to point out for me where I say that a fetus is not a living thing?

"

Where did I say that? Sorry, I've just forgotten. Please show me and I'll apologize then. Point it out for me."

And for the record, you do now know how to debate.. Every time I say something to which you simply CANNOT find any good replies, you say "I'm not gonna bother responding to that", or something.. The truth is, you can't respond, because you've got nothing. You're so pathetic.

Bye-bye!

A FETUS IS A LIVING THING!!!!

Godi wish i could find that article. You see the fetus reaching out to touch a doctor during surgery on the mother. Itssimly amazing. Saying a fetus isn't living is like saying baceria isn't it may not be fully aware of its surroundings but it still is alive and can feel things.

Who said it's not a living thing? For God's sake. Point it out for me.

Im aginst it unless you get raped. A song that discribes my fealings tord Abortion is called "What It´s Like" by Everlast.

I have had an abortion so I kinda know about it obviously. I fully believe in it. I was 13 years old and there was no way I could of had that child. I struggle to care of myself let alone another human being. I kinda feel bad about it but I know in my heart I could not be a mother or a decent one at that. If I didn't want that child but I still had it what would be the point? It would have no father (because he left), it would have a mother who didn't want it, it couldn't be a normail child.

Well, you shouldn't of had sex then, and at age 13!?! That is unless it was rape

Dead animals can't feel pain. Continue to beat the horse.

way to be a judgemental jerk.

LOL THE INTERNET

What's the point in debating an unanswerable question? 54 pages and two years later there's yet to be an answer.

Agree to disagree and move on.

Hmm i agree with you.You made me see something different and i agree with what you replied.When i say stuff negative out of anger to taylor,ignore it because A)it has nothing to do you with you and B)I regret what i say after and C)Im going to say how i feel regardlessly even if it may come out to being uncivilized.

-Ill respond to you taylor with your post tomorrow,too tired to read it-

//Edit

Never mind.

"you have an idea what it was like to be in the holocaust but you would never insult someone who actually was there by saying, "i understand what happened. i know what it feels like."

no because all you know is the stories from media and movies and first hand accounts. all you can feel is simple, vague emotions that you think someone might feel in that situation."

No im not saying I know what it feels like,are you reading what im trying to say correctly?Im saying a male would have to know how it MUST read it i said MUST feel to be in that pain&agony.

"
and...maybe this would put this is presciptive from the women's point of view. you are with someone you love but something happened... the condom broke or the birth control pills don't work. and you're pregnant. and abortion was already banned and your forced to carry the baby. let's say you honestly, desperately don't want to. would you, as a human, knows what it's like to lose control of you body? a woman who didn't want to be pregnant is being forced by the government to keep it and let the parasite (which essentially is what a fetus is. it grows within the mother's womb and absorbs some nutrients and uses her blood) grow? to have no control over your body and have to hear some outside force dictate what she has to do?"

I wouldnt give a damn,i would do for me at that time and not give a damn about who banned it,because its my damn body,Screw the damn government.I dont think they support me with the clothes i would have to wake up and wear.I dont think they help me have to carry that child or even had sex with me to make whats living inside of me.Like i said,screw the damn government.They could go choke on something.Really.

"if the child is actually adopted, hurray! but what if it can't get adopted? than it grows up in the system... as the child grows up, the likelyhood that he/she adopted lowers. and children who grow up in the system, aren't exactly... the happiest. also, our child services are already stretched too thin. in new york city, they barely have enough resources (or they don't want to), to check up on the families and ensure the safety of the children."

I disagree because thats not how all the systems are.Sure they arent the happiest but some are really truly thank-ful that they were even alive?You know what i mean?

"actually... i'm a woman. society and biologically... i'm prepared to have children if i want. i know what to expect. besides, i have a higher chance of experiencing being pregnant than YOU will. "

And?I know you will have that knowledge,but i dont see your point.I do but i dont get it.

"once again, it makes me angry that you would resort to cursing and disrespecting Angelina Taylor. maybe she was assuming of your situation but you said you hoped that her life would be in danger just because she disagrees with you on a Debate forum."

How am i disrespecting her?Really explain that to me.No see i said i would love it to happen to her to see how it feels,if i didnt state it in how i just said so,then i correct my self,and no its not just because she disagree's with me.Are you blind?or just taking her side?Because what i was saying is that lets see how she felt,and not because she disagreed with me,you must really think im an immature person.Im not actually.

"
you are asking a woman to perform surgery on herself? the woman has a tumor (an abnormal cell growth) that would continue to grow along with the fetus and the woman would become weak. because they refused to allow her have an abortion, they potentially setenced both the mother and the baby to death.

THE WOMAN IS STUPID BECAUSE SHE WON'T REMOVE IT HERSELF? WTF IS THAT? ...i'm not going to even acknowledge it with an intelligent comment."

Well i say yes and no to that.Because she is capable of doing something.so dont say "wtf is that"because its true.

"no because all you know is the stories from media and movies and first hand accounts. all you can feel is simple, vague emotions that you think someone might feel in that situation."

Omg you win a million dollars for just pointing out what i freaking saying!You think i watched movies?No i dont think so.Like i've said,if a male is there doing his job as a father and supporting his woman,seeing her going through all of that,and being exactly right by her side and never leaving.Then yes the hell he may know how it MUST feel.MUST feel,which is also saying he will think of how it must feel like.Sheesh.

"yes doctors do make mistakes like that but those are really rare cases and the doctors were punished accordingly. when surgeries do happen, you aren't attended to by one doctor. the Operating Room is full with specialty nurses and doctors. also, there is one main, head doctor but there is always an assitant doctor to help him. more or less, one of these people will keep count or spot if something goes wrong. it could happen, since doctors are still human, but if most doctors are competent and wouldn't make sure a hugh error"

You know,thats some of you peoples problem.You think a doctor wont make such a dramatical error,but what if the doctor does it intentionally.PEOPLE cannot be trusted,not even a doctor.They can be phyco and not even showing it and people wont no.But if the doctor was just doing his/her job well theres a huge chance they will make that mistake.Its 50/50.

[[Yeah taylor i will respond to you sometime tomorrow or the next day,im really dead shot tired.I SHALL BE BACK]]

^ I'm not interested in your reply. And by the way.



This is just some examples:



Bye

^ yeah, those personal stabs are really uncalled for. Do you people even stop and read the forum rules?

^ Apparently, some don't.

It's wrong...

^ Three cheers for a complex, well-thought-out reply that one can really dig into and find responses for.

Against Abortion so much...I hate the idea or thought about it cause like there murdering and unborn child because of the stupid fault they made of opening there legs and not using protection like Fuk it makes me so angry like havn't people herd of the word protection....obviously not. Well as you can tell I am against it

^ ::sigh::

I can only imagine how annoying it gets for the moderators of this subforum...

^^^ WTF?

And I'm sure it annoys you how she didn't even comprehend a shred of what you were pointing out. That is the very reason I stopped posting in this forum.

^--haha

Post in the other one now then I guess. Closed.