hey trau, how would you feel if there was a law passed that all children past the 2nd child had to be aborted?

I would be all for it, man!!!!!111

no, seriously. go with me here a second.

There is nowhere to go.

1. Haha, the question is, why I am immoral? Circles, I'm telling you.

2. It's not the fault of the child, but it isn't the fault of the mother either for contracting an illness. Maybe it's God's fault.

3. Semantics. Glad you finally want to go into sematnics. What do you mean by positive action? Is it the same as explained in the following quoted definition? Suicide is the willingness to die. The New Advent defines suicide as the following:

Suicide is the act of one who causes his own death, either by positively destroying his own life, as by inflicting on himself a mortal wound or injury, or by omitting to do what is necessary to escape death, as by refusing to leave a burning house. From a moral standpoint we must treat therefore not only the prohibition of positive suicide, but also the obligation incumbent on man to preserve his life.

Of course it further explains that there are suicides that are considered as "exalted virtues", but those few are claimed by saints.

4. You said that "desperation for life at the expense of others is immoral", but argue on the side that supports desperation for the life of the child at the expense of the mother. In that I see a contradiction.

5. Yet that is what we all rather do. I rather you die than I die. My neighbor next door would rather I die than he dies. You, yourself would rather I die than you die. That is a "rather" we carry until our deaths. So what makes us any different than the mother who'd rather the fetus die than she dies? It doesn't right?

6. If it is detraction you fear, fear not; I will lead us back.

7. The stats I presented explained my views and in no way supports yours. Maybe you'd like to elaborate?

8. By saying that they do not matter.

9. The Bible authorizes it.

what, afraid of the truth?

come on, man. it doesn't take but a few keystrokes.

A recurrence of what happened with me, you, Minda, and Sikdragon?

Hard to do without Minda and his Virgin Islands.

Because that is the ultimate selfishness.



But only she can make a decision.



The New Advent also goes on to describe a type of suicide which is the result of action or inaction and not the desired outcome. I see a difference between a willingness to die and a desire to die.



I am not making my argument out of a selfishness to preserve my own life.



What right do I have to prefer my life over yours? Deep down inside we all have a desire to live, but morally I cannot say that my life is worth more than yours. I am not better than you.



You found that only 30 percent of rape victims contemplate suicide. We can only assume that far fewer than that actually carry it out. The statistics are in my favor.



But they don't in the context in which I was referring to them. One percentage point is hardly a basis for blanket abortion rights.



We've been over this. The Old Testament authorizes it. As far as I know, the New Testament is silent on it. As I said before, Christ's crucifixation essentially fulfilled the laws of the Old Testament, and Christ's life on teaching centered on love and forgiveness. These are things I would not ascribe to one who viewed the death penalty with any importance.




What truth?

If you bothered to read any of my posts, you would know my answer to your ridiculous question.

well i certainly know the answer to your question.

i just want you to say it, so i can ask the next question.

you realize things when you same them yourself instead of being told.

If you know the answer then why can you not just use that and move on with your silly attempt to ZING! me?

because you realize things when you say them yourself.

if someone else says it, you don't have to believe it.

but when you say it, some part of you has to believe it.

and since this is asking your opinion, where you choose the answer, it should be easy.

Again, I'm not talking about abortion rights, I'm talking about your opposing all reasons for abortions, even the ones that "rarely" happens. This is simply to support abortion from rape and health. The rest, I do not agree with at all. I've said that before. Thus, in that context, 1% is absolutely relevant.

All humans are guilty of the ultimate selfishness, why are these mothers singled out?

Where does it explain that suicide is not willingness to die? And while The New Advent also explains that there are positive, negative, direct, and indirect suicide, they are call called "suicide".

While contemplating suicide does not mean actually killing oneself, how can you assume positive when the negative is more apparent? That is also among the strangest logics I've seen.

I do not want to know if my life is worth more than yours, I simply want to live. You would prefer your life over mine because you want to live. You do not need to be better than me to want to live or continue living.

God "commands" capital punishment before even the Old Testament. It is in Genesis, whose laws carry over to the New Testament. This source disagrees with you citing Acts 5:1-11 and Acts 12:23. It also states that while Jesus died for our sins under the death penalty, He never complained of it or spoke against it. In Matthew 5:17, Christ denies opposing the Law and Prophets (the Old Testament). With that piece of evidence, I conclude that one who argues that the death penalty is contrary to Christ's teachings, is arguing against the Bible.

Lol, for a second that resembled German.

So basically you're saying that the fetus is unimportant, correct? Just as the egg and the acorn, right?
With out the egg, there is no chicken. Without the acorn, there is no oak tree. With out the fetus, there is to human being. Without human beings, there is no mankind. Sounds pretty important to me.

I like how you think you can read my mind with a few posts read. I don't believe in people. Look at where believing in people it has got us today. I actually have little to no faith in humans. We are all doomed to our own destruction but I don't think it's too late to turn around, although I think it's getting pretty close. That's partly because of abortion. We might not have aids and cancer anymore. We might have a way to properly dispose of nuclear waste if the scientists of our future weren't murdered before their first breath. I can tell you like to focus on the negatives.

I couuldn't agree with you more when you say that people are selfish, heartless things that play havoc with nature.

Please don't judge me so quickly, sadolakced acid. That is the height of ignorance.

And you continue to argue that the child and the mother are equals!
If the child is not capable of being immoral, how much more capable is that fetus of holding a right to life? What worth is the child?

Exactly why does the fetus have these rights that you describe?



Place it into context. How is aborting an unborn child any more selfish than killing an animal for food?

Oh, and you may want to read a book called The Virtue of Selfishness.




That is a ridiculous slippery slope. Our population is still rapidly growing despite the reality of legal abortion. This is a non-issue. So, why is the fetus important again?

I see. Well I still oppose those reasons as I have said.



Í don't believe that is true, nor have I singled anyone out.



The New Advent is not a dictionary. Stop playing semantics. While your source does define sacrificing one's self for others as suicide, it is not defined as a sin.



...what are you talking about?



There is a difference between wanting to live and killing someone else to live.



Genesis is part of the Old Testament. Christ's sacrifice fulfilled those laws as I have said more than once.




Did you bother to read those passages? It is God who killed those people. I don't know about you, but I don't compare myself to God, and so I find no reason to see those passages as condoning the death penalty.





I never said that Christ said anything against the death penalty. In fact I mentioned what you said.

Why are we having this conversation? Are you trying to tell me that I am incorrect in my opposition to the death penalty? None of this has anything to do with abortion.




Well excuse me for not relying on the Biblical interpretations of one who does not even understand that Genesis is a part of the Old Testament. Again, did you read the passage cited?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

By fulfilling the law, Christ has made it essentially obsolete.




Okay, I'll play your little game.

I would oppose a law of the kind you mentioned.

Because it insures the future of mankind? Must I water everything down for you? Isn't reproduction and passing down genes the natural instincts of a human being? All creatures in nature have one purpose in life: to reproduce and ensure the survival of their kind. It's pretty sad that's our only reason, but from a scientific standpoint, that is the only reason.

and why would you oppose it?

For the same reasons I oppose abortion in any other instance.

and what would those reasons be?

Because I believe it is wrong to kill unborn human beings.

but why should we take your belief into consideration when this law is passed?

You shouldn't. But I am not the only person who holds the views that I do.

so in passing this law, no attention should be paid towards your, or anyone else's beliefs?

People's beliefs should be paid attention to. I was just making the point that I should not, as an individual, be considered as more important than anyone else.

Why are you dragging this topic into legality and politics?

because a majority of this thread is about making abortion illegal, and that's the major aim of pro lifers.

people's beliefs should be taken into account? Anyone's beliefs? or any specifics?

I haven't seen legality discussed in this thread and if it has been discussed, that context was left behind a while ago.



Why are you asking? Where are you going with this?

Actually, legality of abortion is and has been the point of this thread from the beginning...that's why people have been continuing to ask for a point opposing abortion other than the religious right (that or "it's living", because the scientific community has already proven that it is not, which I had shown a while back, but no one pays attention), because a religion's wishes (should) have no say in our country's laws.

The opening post gives this prompt:

The only mention of law is in its preface.

By the way, how has science shown that fetuses aren't living? Or that human embryos aren't living?

you'll see.

anyways, usually the opening post isn't that good. i haven't read this one lately, so i can't say, but tha'ts how it usually goes.

the pace is established in the first 3 pages or so.

I always thought abortion was bad, but to think of that. I was thinking it more clearly because there are people who can't have babies if they do they can die.

And I found out that if I have a baby, I might die. I got so scared hearing that. My stomach is THAT BAD.

So yeah if I got raped xD i have to of course do abortion. even if thats a sin.

i don't wana die

I sorta agree with you. But if its a rape the women should take the baby out if she dosent want itt. And theres always adoption.

if it rape yeah that sucks but at least let the kid live i mean god it wont kill you people will understand ADOPTION ALL THE WAY

And it wouldn't kill you "people" to understand abortion.

We understand it completely.

if a girl wants an abortion, go for it. i might be a little more against it, but (i know this sounds harsh) the world is getting overpopulated, so it doesnt make a whole lot of sense to force someone to have a kid.

And so that enforces abortion?

Ok, this will sound really harsh but it's the facts. The reason we're overpopulating the world is because we're going against natural selection. We're keeping mentally retarded people alive well past ages that they should be. We're keeping people with diseases that should have been dead years ago alive. We're coming up with medicines to cure every problem in society. That's why we're overpopulated.

Now, don't get me wrong. That's not my personal opinion, that's just the facts. I have an aunt and a cousin who are both severely mentally ill and I love them both very much. They've helped us appreciate life a lot more. I know I do. Maybe that's why I don't support abortion.

We understand adoption completely.

Agreed.

Taylor``

The truth is that most people do not understand abortion at all. This is why we get comments like these:

...No?

We have quite a while left until the world becomes overpopulated. Some areas are overpopulated, but in general, the world is not overpopulated. We're nowhere near the resource limits.

I agree, but I think the person who I replied to was talking about the rate at which we are overpopulating. At least, that's what I think they meant. Notice how they said getting overpopulated.

At this stage of the growing population, abortions would not be a proper fight against overpopulation.

Very true.

it's time for a new thread.

Yeahhh, that's kind of what I said. Just not as straight to the point.

so is that suppose to mean that we can wait and do absolutely nothing till the world is overpopulated and we're facing even more food shortages (this time worldwide - not just third world countries) and high levels of displacement and pollution? i rather take measures now when the world is just getting overpopulated.

no, abortion is definitely not a way to control the world's population. but you have to agree, it would lower the amount of children being born, therefore, the amount of people. i just support pro-choice because without women's rights to abortion, the population of unwanted, and probably unloved, children will increase. this has a rippling affect because a neglected children can led to a higher crime rate, increased diagnosises of medical diseases, and many other things we want to protect children from ever growing up to be. i'm not saying it's going to happen 100% but the chances increase when you force someone to do something they desperately don't want to.

if we get overpopulated its our own fault for going and having sex not the childs fault dont kill the child

wow. that's groovy.

i just love your opinion.

it is worth the same as my opinion.

because mine is backed by logic and facts, and yours isn't.

i mean, we woudln't want to use facts or logic, would we?

then we'd be in danger of actuallly having a debate!

to think!

there really is no blame to be put in the world's population. it's a natural (well... as natural as it can right now with such advancements in medicine) part of the world's civilizations. it's simple math. it started with the ancient civilizations and their success. their success made their population thrive and then the new generation thrives and have more families and then it continues. the world isn't 'overpopulated' or whatever because people are having rabid sex and popping babies out.

thats the most dumist sh-t i ever read.