yet i think it's safe to say that a completely unmylenated feotus is incapable of feeling?

A lack of myelin does cause nervous signals to be impaired or lost, so in theory, a completely unmyelinated nervous system would be completely nonfunctional. I'm not sure when myelination begins to happen, and a person can clearly be functional while some myelination is still occuring.

Your entire argument concerning this issue rests primarily on the dehumanization of the abortion process, and only the extremists would try to justify abortion because a fetus hasn't completely mylenated and is different from you and I simply because it has no functioning nerve cells.

rather; i'm pointing out the absurdity of saying a feotus can feel at 3 months.


i'm not saying use mylenation as the benchmark for humanity.

however; i am saying that anything completely unmylenated is not wholely human.

mylenation has not happened in the 1st and 2nd trimesters; therefore, feotuses in the 1st and 2nd trimester cannot feel and mothers seeking abortions should be accurately told this, instead of getting the one sided anti-abortion view that will probably say something about pain to the feotus.

I know there are 40+ pages to this, but I only read the first. I believe that it's the woman/girl's choice whether they want an abortion or not, some people think it's murder, other don't. But if you are an abortion protestor outside a clinic and you see a young girl trying to get in, but you have all tried to block the entrance (yes, it's a little dramatic, but just go with me) Do you know her? or her family? or her situation? Do you really have the right to tell this girl that she cannot have an abortion? Maybe she was a rape victim, why would anyone want to even see their rapists child? Isn't it enough that they just got raped? Yes, she could give up the baby for adoption, but for some time, she'd have to drop out of high school, she may lose all repect from her parents, her classmates, her teachers, all for one mistake. I think that it all depends on the situation, and people who are against abortion should take into consideration other people's situations, and how they feel. Abortion should be a personal choice. One opinion should not choose for you.

Most of the people who stand against abortion in this thread agree with you. However, when you see examples of women who abuse the privilege (upwards of 9 or 10 times), you can't honestly justify the crap spewing out of your mouth.

^ it isn't crap; it's quite valid, if overrepeated.

but i see no reason to curtail the rights of the majority because of the abuse of a minority.

The abuses of that minority are becoming far too commonplace.

And on another note, who cares if a fetus can't physically feel the pain of abortion?

The definition of fetus is "unborn human" -- who are you to dictate that these unborn humans don't deserve the rights we have?

Because they unborn and not living.

Then are you for partial birth abortions?

QUOTE(CrackedRearView @ Feb 9 2006, 12:56 AM)

Most of the people who stand against abortion in this thread agree with you.  However, when you see examples of women who abuse the privilege (upwards of 9 or 10 times), you can't honestly justify the crap spewing out of your mouth.

I'm saying it should be a personal choice. I don't think it's any of our business how many times people get abortions, although I completly agree with you, it's abuse of the privilege.

Kryo, how many times have I stated my views in this thread? Go back and read. This is ridiculous that I keep getting questioned on the same things. I agree with you on everything except one point: all or none.

Well, I entered "partial birth" into the search engine and found that you made no mention of it yet.

OK, I will explain my views YET AGAIN.

I do not agree with more than one abortion. I don't agree with anything that could potentially hurt the fetus, such as partial birth abortion if it's late enough for the fetus to be capable of feeling it. I am not in support of abortions after the 3rd week of pregnancy unless birth would be detremental to the mother or the baby. I don't think people that got drunk and were slutty and got pregnant should be able to have abortions. However, the law cannot be made case sensitive like that because there's too many exceptions and every potential mother thinks that their situation is dire enough for an abortion. The law made will come down to all (before the third week ends) or none. I personally hold the quality of life over the quantity. Yes, abortion cases that, by my and your standards, are considered legit only make up 5% of abortions each year. But let's look at some statistics.

# There are approximately 46 million abortions conducted each year, 20 million of them obtained illegally.
# There are approximately 126,000 abortions conducted each day.

Now, what will happen here if we outlaw abortions? Throughout the world, 20 million abortions are conducted illegally because these women aren't allowed to have them. Do you know how that happens? They unfold wire hangers into a straight line and stick them inside them selves to abort the pregnancy. Is that really any better? Is that what you'd rather have? Apparently, that's what's being pushed for, and to that, I very strongly disagree.

Approximately 1,370,000 abortions occur annually in the U.S. according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute.

Now let's look at that 5% in a number. 68,500. Now, I don't know about you, but if it's really the quantity of life that you're concerned about (which seems to be the case), I would think you would much rather prevent 68,500 potential lives from happening rather than kill 68,500 people who have already lived some of their life and still have a lot more to go.

A lot of people say that their opposition to abortion is based on their faith. However, 43% of women getting an abortion claimed they were Protestant, while 27% claimed they were Catholic. If Christianity actually is against abortion, why would 70% of abortion patients be Christian?

Let's take a look at contraception uses. Many of those against abortion make the claim that people use abortion as a form of contraception and don't really try otherwise.

* 54% of women having an abortion said they used some form of contraception during the month they became pregnant.
* 90% of women who are at risk for unplanned pregnancies are using contraception
* 8% of women having an abortion say they have never used contraception.
* It is possible that up to 43% of the decline in abortion from 1994-2000 can be attributed to using emergency contraception.

How is that possible? A majority of those getting abortions did try to prevent it. Abortion is used as a last resort for the most part, not an option out.

So, basically, we think the same way, but for me, I would rather go with all allowed over none.

Abortion is wrong and i think it should be consider murder. You are killing an innocent baby. You never know what they could have done in life.THey could have found a cure for some disease or made a life-changing invention. Also what would of happen if you were an abortion? Your mom chose for you to live so you should follow what your mother chose.

If you dont want the child then give it up for adoption for there are people who aren't capable of having a child and would love to have your child. If you didn't mean to have the child then you should of been more safe. You have to learn from your mistakes so you choose what to do and you have to live with what comes after.

I just think it's wrong because the baby never did anything to you and everyone deserves to live and accomplish things in life that may help others live their life better.

You know what, if that many people that get pregnant are stupid enough to unfold a wire hanger and kill themselves to abort a fetus illegally, I'd say that what we have is not a conflict of ideologies or a hot-button issue anymore. What we have is a very stupid population, and the more of these idiots we get rid of, the better.

It may sound harsh, but let me take a page out of your book.

"Survival of the fittest."

That uh...wouldn't be killing themselves. Actually. Just the fetus.

well when you are getting an abortion arent you killing the baby? Do you even know how they do abortions?I read up and trust me it wasn't pretty.Also i went to someone's xanga that was all about it with pictures and also something about the whole planned parenthood program and it said the person who made it was like doing it because she knew minorities would be the ones getting abortions and she said something like she wanted a cleaner race.This got me so mad mainly since my boyfriend is considered a minorty and lots of my friends are too.

And well my science teacher said that the baby or fetus how u guys put it can feel it. And well i read that sometimes when they perform an abortion that the baby still lives so they put it aside to die.That is just plain out cruel.

QUOTE(BrunetteGoddess @ Feb 11 2006, 5:22 PM)

Abortion is wrong and i think it should be consider murder. You are killing an innocent baby. You never know what they could have done in life.THey could have found a cure for some disease or made a life-changing invention. Also what would of happen if you were an abortion? Your mom chose for you to live so you should follow what your mother chose.

If you dont want the child then give it up for adoption for there are people who aren't capable of having a child and would love to have your child. If you didn't mean to have the child then you should of been more safe. You have to learn from your mistakes so you choose what to do and you have to live with what comes after.

I just think it's wrong because the baby never did anything to you and everyone deserves to live and accomplish things in life that may help others live their life better.

its not a baby. its a fetus. our mothers had us because they wanted a baby. what about the teens who get pregnant because of rape? what if YOU got pregnant because of rape? would you want to live your life delivering a baby knowing that that baby was a mistake? if abortion was made illegal, many to be mothers would go and get them done illegaly. the tools there wouldnt even be sterilized and theyd be dirty. the mothers could end up getting infections. sure, you could give that baby up for adoptiong, but do you really want to have a fetus in your stomach for 9 months and then just give it away?

but..if you were a teen who decided to go retarded, get drunk, and have sex willingly, then let them suffer through the pregnancy. its their fault.

also, i think that women should only be allowed a certain number of abortions. like, 3 or something. that way, they would just use abortion has an easy way out.

What do you mean by at least 3 abortions? In what cases?

I'm doing a project on pregancy so i have to talk about the fetus and all that. Fetus/baby whatever, the fact is it's growing inside of you. It's your responsability.
If someone was raped, i can understand if she considers having an abortion but i don't think it's the best thing to do.
If it's a matter of life and death, then i'm totally for it. I don't think it's called abortion when it reaches that stage. My mom had an "abortion" because she had to. If she chose to keep the baby, she'lld be dead. Luckily she chose to live. That's different.
If a stupid, irresponsible kid should have sex, get pregnant AND decides to get an abortion, that's messed up. I'm 100 % against it.

^ whats so confusing about it? women should only have a certain amount of abortions. and i said three because tahts just my opinon.

But what if the mother doesn't have the money nor the responsiblity to raise the child? Would you risk it so the child can grow up in an "unhealthy" environment? Would you risk overpopulation just so they can get punishment? I mean really, the reason for abortion is to help women who aren't ready for motherhood. I think it's stupid if you let a woman who doesn't even want to be a mother therefore "sucks" at being mother raise a child. It can mess kids up pretty bad.

^^agreed.



Why wouldn't it be right to abotrtion the baby when you've been raped?
Is there any consideration for the people who have been raped? Most people feel that no matter what, killing a fetus/baby is wrong, but have you thought about it from their POV?
Furthermore, if the raped woman does have the baby, do you think she'll treat him/her right? or give it the proper education?

3% of current abortions are because of rape, risking the mothers health, or the child has mental retardation

Should a child be murdered just because of what his or her father has done? It's the same thing as you being thrown into jail because your father held up a bank, or you being put on the electric chair because he murdered a family. I don't think a baby should face the consequences of his or her father's mistakes.

And I don't think a mother should have a baby she doesn't even want. I mean, did you guys even think about what these babies are going to grow into? Sure there are lots of kids who were supposed to be aborted that weren't, and yet they seem fine but that's only a minority. You want to waste money, clothing, space, air on something that wasn't even wanted?

QUOTE(Blow_Don't_SUCK @ Feb 12 2006, 4:53 PM)

And I don't think a mother should have a baby she doesn't even want. I mean, did you guys even think about what these babies are going to grow into?

exactly what i would have said. why dont we think of it as if YOURE the one thats pregnant. would you keep the baby knowing you had absolutely nothing? would you keep the baby knowing you couldnt even feed yourself? sure, give it up for adoption is what everyone says..but after having something in your stomach for 9 months, youre going to get attached to it. youre going to wish you could keep it. and then if you kept your new baby, you wouldnt be able to support it. i never said i was for or against abortion..but i do agree that abortion SHOULD BE KEPT LEGAL for rape, for women who are teens, for women who have no money. but..if you have money, theres no reason to kill it.

Sure there is. You might not want it or want to have it.

QUOTE(Acid Bath Slayer @ Feb 12 2006, 6:59 PM)

Sure there is. You might not want it or want to have it.

then thats their mistake. im only for abortion if its teen, rape, or if they have no money to raise it.

I think one of the best quotes on the issue comes from Steven D. Levitt:

"What the link between abortion and crime does say is this: when the government gives a woman the opportunity to make her own decision about abortion, she generally does a good job of figuring out if she is in a position to raise the baby well. If she decides she can't, she often chooses abortion."[1]




1. Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner, Freakonomics (William Morrow, 2005), 144.

Then what's the problem with back-alley abortions? People rally against pro-lifers because they say that if we outlaw abortion women will start coat-hangering themselves. If all that does is rid a fetus, who cares?

We've outlawed cocaine but people still smoke it.

^ because it will increase crime rates.

and illegal activity that is allowed would have a broken-window effect.

it would also help fund illegal drugs, most probably.
(drug rings could make money on the side doing illegal abortions. )





most aborted babies aren't going to be growing up in nice suburban homes, sheltered and set to become a president.

Yeah but if the woman has money and yet you can really really tell, she's an un-fit mother. You wouldn't want her raising a kid.

Nothing of what you just said holds any truth. And you're the one that usually bashes theory.

^It is one of the most reasonable assumptions.

Besides if a woman wants to abort her baby, you can tell that the kid is not going to grow up in a good environment (as I said before). Those supposed-to-be-aborted babies that go into adoption centers or foster care can live a pretty darn hard live.

Yet the fact remains -- it's an assumption. The only assumption that their entire argument rests upon.

^Yeah, but would you seriously risk that? I mean that assumption can be possible! And according to articles and such a majority of supposed-to-be-aborted babies aren't living a paradise! Besides, adoption is a horrible choice...

I went to an adoption center in bridgeport for volunteer hours and some were supposed-to-be-aborted children. Those children are living a "depressed" life. When I tried to talk to them, they were a little hostile and had the "unworthy of a life" feeling. Would you seriously want to risk (yet again) overpopulation and a lot of money for adoption centers just for children like them?

If a woman tries to abort her baby with a coat-hanger, there's high probability of an infection or injury on her part. THAT would probably hurt the baby a lot more than current ways of abortion. It's not very fast and she really can't see what she's doing.

IT's still a human!And well i saw the percent of mothers who get abortions and the reason why and well rape was like under 10%. Which rape is the only case i still that is ok but i think there are other ways beside abortion that would be ok.Like even prisoners do not die in the cruel way of abortion.
Oh and i saw pictures of abortions and well some didn't look like fetuses to me.Some look like babies! And well i read that sometimes it still lives so they put it aside to die.Also do you even know how abortions are done?It's so wrong and cruel.

But the ONLY reason i think that is ok for a women to get an abortion is rape and that is the only reason.Because rape isnt your fault(unless you go to a party and get drunk-um if u go to parties dont get drunk)But then people can avoid rape if they learn how to protect themselves.Because i've read that rape can be prevented and most of the time it's because someone got the person drunk at a party so my advice is dont get drunk and be safe at parties.

But i still think abortions are wrong except maybe under the case of rape.Other then that if you dont want a baby dont have sex or use protection or get birth control. And always think of the consquences.

You want to start talking about what could be possible?

What about the possibility of a newborn human child?

EDIT// And come on, how much more skewed can your logic get? Just because they're depressed they don't deserve a chance at life? We should stop it before it happens? In your (most likely selection biased) experience you noticed a few unhappy "would-be-aborted" children. Again, stop generalizing.

And the overpopulation argument is such a ridiculous crock. The alternate causality of overpopulation has absolutely NOTHING to do with abortion; believe me, we still see the injury of overpopulation and in most parts of the world abortion is fairly legal.

So, let me get this straight, you are against destroying a fetus because you believe that the fetus has a certain amount of value to it. So, destorying it is wrong. However, if the pregnant mother had been raped, is a teen, or has little to no money then it is alright to destory that fetus?

I really don't see much of a difference as the option to adoption is always open.

For me, I don't really see much value in a fetus so it really doesn't bother me that they are being aborted. Especially a fetus within the first few months of pregnancy. I understand the responsibility argument, however, it is not our responsibility to impose and force a mother to be sexually responsible. That is a matter of philosophy and not law. Without the mother, the fetus dies. If the mother does not wish to be pregnant, she becomes a kind of host to a parasite. The fetus relies on the life of the mother to grow and survive, so the baby is directly the responsibility of the mother. If the mother does not wish to have a child there is no legal way we can force the mother to remain a host. It is her body and her choice. This is very much a private matter between the mother and the mother's doctor, not the government, the mother, and the mother's doctor.

As a fetus can not have, to itself, rights (as it has never comprehended, nor could have, such concepts) the mother is at liberty to choose the fate of the fetus as it's kind of guardian. As the fetus has not yet truly lived, to me, it is of little to no value. Its extermination will not keep me up at night.

Tell me, why should it?

Would you say the same thing about the native tribes in central Africa? Or the aborigines in New Zealand?

They don't comprehend or understand the concept of rights or liberty, yet we're not advocating their removal on a mass scale.

um, no..im saying that if its the mothers fault that she got pregnant then she should live with it. if she went out and got drunk, had sex, and got rpegnant, she should live with it.

Actually, I think they do understand. These people all have social constructs which include either an explicit or implicit appeal to the rights that certain individuals have. Many individuals have duties and these duties often directly reflect their rights. I think you are mistaking rights for equal rights.

Also, your analogy is false. You are speaking of people with the ability to comprehend and hold rights, even if they are not granted such in their own personal societies. These are all people that are, at least, capable of holding rights and duties. A fetus could not even begin to understand or hold a right, because of this a guardian figure must be responsible for the fetus. The mother is clearly that figure, which gives her the liberty to exterminate said fetus.

Your analogy makes me assume that you are attempting to or have already equated a fetus to the moral level of a sentient, full-grown, human being. This I find monsterously absurd as a fetus is in, many ways, very different from a full-grown human being. Most notably, the child is not capable of the most basic forms of thought and reasoning.

Why should I care that a fetus is being aborted exactly? What is, exactly, morally reprehensible about that?



If it is the mother's fault that she got pregnant, then why should she be forced to have a child?
If it is not her fault, why shouldn't she be forced to have the child?

What exactly are you pointing out as justification for destorying a fetus?
Does the fetus really know the difference anyways?
You do realize that condoms are not 100% safe?
What happens if a woman uses all percuations, but she still gets pregnant? Techinically, that isn't her fault either.

And, how do we enforce this kind of legislation, and why gives us the right to?

Not so much, though. What you said was that a fetus doesn't comprehend rights. The same can be said about tribes who don't know that they deserve to live. I was simply pointing out the holes in your reasoning behind abortion. I just want to get to the bottom of why you think abortion should be legal.

You say that it's because a fetus can't feel it, which is an understood fact. Yet your comrade just before you says that we should have it legalized because there's a possibility of back-alley injury when we outlaw it.

Yet that leaves a contradiction in that, with a fetus, there's a possibility of life.

I just want to know where you guys draw the lines here, and why everyone on your side contradicts each other.

That's all

^You're asking why we think abortion should be legal? The general reason is to give a woman her right, tramp or not, it's HER choice! We can't decide for them! They have to live their own lives!

You know Justin, just because people are on the same "side" about an issue doesn't mean they agree on every stipulation and limit.

Well, WTF?!?!!!11onebbq

I can't multitask...

you know, after 43 pages of arguments, it's kind of hard to not repeat the same ones without resorting to theory.

i mean, sure, i could use hard facts; but i've used them already, and it would be pointless to use them again.

Je Suis ANTI ABORTION 100%