On December 13th 2005, Stan Tookie Williams will be excuted.



My question is - Should Governor Schwarzenegger grant him clemency? In what situation should the Governor grant clemency?


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If your interested, here's a site dedicated to saving Tookie. http://www.savetookie.org/index.html

I think yes. He claims he is a changed man and I believe him.
Edit: I decided to think about this.....and I change my mind. I do believe he has changed, but he did what he did and there is no excuse for it.

Depends.

I believe Tookie's changed, and I do believe he'd be an asset to the community if freed.

I also believe he won't live long if granted clemency.

Then again, if Tookie is freed, then the warden of every pen in the entire country is going to have to take an in depth look on the files of their prisoners, because Tookie isn't the only brotha that needs to be let out of the cage.

He's an unrepentant former gang leader and murderer. He should never get out of prison. I'm not a supporter of the death penalty, so I think it's reasonable that he spends the rest of his natural life in prison.

What Tookie did was absolutely inexcusable and he deserves to be punished. I don't think he should be freed, even though I know in my heart that he truly regrets what he has done. I think he should be kept alive in prison, in order to talk to kids who might join gangs.

well i don't think that it's a good idea if he is freed,probably not give him a death sentence but maybe a longer time in prison.

^same here. no matter wat the person did, nobody deserves to be killed. thats like murdering too.

I actually think he SHOULD be executed. It wouldn't be fair to all the other convicts who got executed. Even though he turned his life around, made a change, etc. Regardless of all that, he still did what he did. He killed human beings. I don't see how just because of that, he gets freed. You have to think about the family of the people that were killed by him. Imagine how they'd feel if Tookie was freed. The man who killed their son/brother/uncle etc.



He's serving life in prison right now. Right?
I admit I would feel sorry for him, but it's not like he brought those dead people back to life. Just because he wrote books and changed everything doesn't cover for the fact he did kill someone.

what i meant was instead of a death sentence why not just let him stay in prison

are you guys f**king stupid? HE'S THE FOUNDER OF THE CRIPS AND HIS 16-YEAR OLD DAUGHTER GOT KILLED FROM THE GANG MEMBERS INTENTIONALLY...AND TOOKIE WAS CONNECTED WITH THEM..ALSO THIS IS A FACT THAT TOOKIE KILLED 4 PEOPLE WITH A SHOTGUN? 4 f**king PEOPLE WITH A SHOTGUN....AND U DONT BELIEVE HE DESERVES TO GET EXECUTED? I WOULD BE GLAD IF HE GOT EXECUTED BECAUSE HE DID WHAT WAS WRONG AND THE PUNISHMENT IS GOING TO COME!

IF ANYONE KILLS ANOTHER PERSON, THAT PERSON WHO DID THE MURDERING NEEDS TO BE KILLED AS WELL! THATS A POWERFUL LAW THAT NEEDS TO BE GOING.

SO YES TOOKIE SHOULD BE EXECUTED.

i think NO . okay if he is free then what about the familes that he f**ked up? its hella unfair.. but i dont believe in the death punishment. but he should stay in jail...

" don't join gangs and kill people kids because you'll end up like me, free as a bird, rich, and famous"

just doens't seem like the right way to convince kids.

I think he should rot in the hole, but I don't think its right that the state decides his fate.

He should be executed im sorry but seriously hes just doing this to look good HE KILLED SOOO MANY PEOPLE and put soo much dirty money in the streets. So KILLED LAUNDERED MONEY SOLD DRUGS(TO MINORS) and CO-FOUNDED one of the most dangerous gangs in the U.S THE CRIPS.... =\ what do you think?...

I think he should be executed because he took people's lives. And he did what he did even though he has changed. He still deserves a punishment.

Murder=Punishment.

No..he shouldn't be allowed to live. He shot 4 people, and started up a gang.

Sure, he's changed, but he can't change what he's already done.

I am against the death penalty, so I believe he should be in prison for life. He has to do something to serve his punishment for doing what he did. Taking a life is an unexcuseable act in my opinion, and Tookie should pay the price for it.

Buh-bye Tookie. Good riddance!

Gosh, his days are numbered. if he doesn't get clemency, CNN says he'll be injected Tuesday midnight. O_OO

And killing another person will not change what he has done either. Is it just me, but... doesn't killing another person for their mistakes and offenses in hopes for satisfaction seem kind of sick and barbaric, not to mention hypocritical?

Why not try to rehabilitate him, or let him prove his self-worth (which he pretty much has)? Usually, when people kill others, they're not thinking so straight and maybe have some mental or psychological problems that affect their judgement. Instead of simply killing someone, and taking the easy way out, why not try to help them with their apparent problems?

Okay..I was watching TV && this crazy lady said pretty much what you just said.

By killing someone who has killed, that means we are basically supporting this killing business, right?

I believe an eye for an eye, a life for a life, etc etc etc. He killed someone, the evidence says so..blah blah blah, and, well, if you do something wrong you should be punished.

That simple.

So who gets to kill the guy with the needle?

Heh. Well put.

What if you kill a man, and later find out that he is innocent? Also, there is not enough hard evidense to prove Stanley did it. The only evidense provided is the shotgun shells during the shootings matching that of Stanley's shotgun. There were also witnesses that claimed hearing him saying that he had killed 4 people, but a few of those people were criminals themselfs. Go Figure.

He's claiming he's been set up...

Hmm....I guess no clemency

Schwarzenegger Denies Clemency For Former Gang Leader.

^ DAMN! you beat me.

No clemency.

Always a pleasure.

Riots tonight.

I heard LAPD has been getting some anonymous phone calls from gang members that if Tookie dies, they would be dishing out some damage.

I think they should free him..but too late. He's scheduled to die midnight today. They should stop death row. He should just be sentenced for life.

life in prision is very cushy.

if i'm ever homeless and know i can't get death row, i'll rob a bank.

get away- you're rich.

get caught- free hotel forever. don't have to work if you're a murderer, cus they won't trust you with tools.

sounds like a nice retirement plan for gang members.

i made an error in the topic title, i meant "save tookie"?

i dont believe in the death penalty
i dont believe tookie has "changed" either
i do believe tookie killed the 4 people

should tookie be punished for starting the crips? well he was sentenced to prison because he killed 4 people, not because he founded the crips. i do believe he killed those 4 people, probably did more bad things that he wasnt convicted for.

but isnt jail supposed to be for rehabilitation and punishment? although i dont believe tookie "changed" i believe he will do more good alive than dead. however that is not why i dont want him to be executed. i just dont believe in the death penalty. i hope that makes sense

Yeah, and the only reason why he hasn't been granted clemency is because Schwarzenegger says Tookie won't apologize. If there's enough evidence to back up his claim that he was set up by an acquaintance, I understand why Williams isn't apologizing. If I was convicted for something I didn't do, I wouldn't apologize either. I would feel sympathy for the families of those killed, but I wouldn't apologize. And then to be nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize, and get a President's Call to Service Award from Bush and not be granted clemency on the basis that he's hasn't reformed...I don't agree with Schwarzenegger at all.

word. i never believed in the death penalty either, i think criminals should be stuck to rot in jail for the rest of their lives. plus there's always that possibility that you kill an innocent person.

There are no definities in life...killing really shouldnt breed more killing. We dont know...but all i know is...tookie's clemency wasnt accepted for a reason, tookie is obviously supposed to be killed as everything happens for a reason..who knows maybe the afterlife has some positive use for tookie, or if you prefer he'll just rot in the ground. Its a "what if?" .What if and what if could be good and bad, but "what if" isnt going to happen, the death penalty is going to happen and whether people agree with it or not..thats whats going to happen. Guess it's gonna make sense later on. I just dont know, and the death penalty is just trivial to me, but theres nothing we can do about it. Tookie's fate has already caught up with him, and its his time to go.

I kind of think Tookie has it the easy road. I know it sucks dying and everything, but look at how he gets to die; peacefully in his sleep. And is it true they get a last meal and everything? Look at how his victims died. With a gunshot.

The tragedy of all this, its gonna be endlessly repeated. Then people are willing to take anothers life because of lust and their desire to get revenge, bending everything to their will to get their way. Its a thrill intense enough to make a guy shudder. He was a man enslaved to ecstacy. Co-founder of the crips charged for murder of 4 people. Things are just gonna shake and everythings gonna spark. In the end,it just means another grusome party.

But its done and over with, Tookie should be long dead by now.

^Peace? You think hes gonna die peacefully? It doesn't matter how a person dies, a person not ready to accept their death will never die in peace.

^ Well of course, no one dies "in peace". Maybe I used the wrong words? But Tookie died resting in a padded "dentist's chair" while his victims died with gunshots. You see my point?

who's to say he won't die in peace except himself?


have you ever died? have you ever been executed? then how can you proclaim to know how it will feel?

No. I don't see your point at all. Peace is an individual's choice. It's certainly not dictated by a chair or any other thing.

I just read more on Mr. Tookie. It says he continued to participate in the crips even behind bars and would not give cops information on gang activities because he didn't want to be a snitch. I guess he hasn't changed as much as I thought he had.

Well Kyro, he claims he wont snitch because he doesn't ever want to harm another human being, even if it is a gang member. It just depends how you perceive it.

Also, he did not have a last meal. He says he didn't do it and having a last meal of whatever he wants its just basically admitting he did it.

Another issue I think in which criminals get the death penalty is because of tax payer's money going into providing food for criminals.

Unless you have real proof he actually did it, I don't think you should going around claiming he killed them.

or because he wanted to stay alive? although i dont believe tookie "changed", i do believe that a man could reform and not snitch. those 2 things are not dependant on each other


dumbest statement ever. unless you have real proof that he didnt do it, then just exit this thread. smh. who has real proof that he didn't do it? tookie has been waiting on death row for more than 20 years, and his lawyers got 20 years to try and prove his innocence, and they couldn't. the only people who know if he is guilty or not are tookie himself, his associates, and the victims. and god i guess, if you believe in that kind of thing.


yall act like a governor grants clemency the majority of the time. please. its not arnolds fault, he is just agreeing with the numerous courts that rejected williams. the last governor to grant clemency in the state of california i believe was ronald reagan. the last president that was not pro-death penalty was also reagan. and that was 1967. if tookie was granted clemency, then every immate could start writing books and "reforming" just so they wouldnt die.

http://www.createblog.com/forums/index.php...=80797&hl=death

Differences, argue them there.

Even if the information he gives could prevent the gang member from harming another human being?

He can still send out orders if he was alive.

Well, didn't he have the choice of getting a last meal?

Dumbest statement ever? Yeah.....exactly how is it dumb?

Just because his lawyers couldn't prove his innocense, doesn't mean he did it. I could write my name your homework and claim I did and all the people in the world might believe me, but it doesn't make me right.

I don't recall someone asking him this, so I guess you would have to ask him yourself, but I guess its a little late.