I'm a christian, grew up a christian, and i believe in GOD. But i did go to an elementary cathelic school in my early days, other than that, it was just public schools. In my belief- Everything happens for a reason, and that's God's doings
Yes, I believe in a Heven an hell

Why do you think we are living right now? Somepeople think they werent meant to be born. Everybody is meant to be born, God created us to have life. Now that is a big reason right there.
WE SHOULD BE HAPPY THAT WERE LIVING!

i dunt understand whwat u just said

Well I think everyone should believe what they truely want to believe. Because in the end when everyone dies, we will all disapear even if we were right or wrong about our beliefs. ?I dont know if that makes sence?

God doesn't make us suffer. Other people do. God gave us free will because he loves us. People that do evil are the ones that cause suffering. They are the ones who have no place in heaven.

How can you tell me I can't feel God's presence? Prove it to me, since science is 100% correct all the time and all.

About a year ago, I faced this sort of "crisis", I guess you could say. I was torn between the multiple faiths I had held throughout my life. When I was a boy, I went to church regularly, until about third grade, when my family stopped going. My mum was always a Christian, still is; I'm not sure about my dad, but I don't think he buys into everything. I considered myself an agnostic--I didn't believe in God, but I wasn't quite ready to rule anything out.

However, after having a few classes, particularly one on Japanese literature (of all things), I began to wonder: is there an afterlife? Who created this world? What happens when we die? Surely something as beautifully created as the human, and more particularly, the human mind, cannot simply wither away and disappear into earth upon death? There must be some way that it is saved. My faith began to slowly shift towards a view of a deity and an afterlife. Something, I mused, had to have created this world, and the cosmos, and the human being, and all the animals and plants and so on and so forth--it was too beautiful to not have been created.

Eventually, I joined a Bible study group to try to make sense of the Bible. I even started having one-on-one sessions with the leader of the group to try to make sense of specific Biblical passages that I had questions about.

In the end, however, I decided the whole Christianity thing was a myth.

Partly it started due to two classes I had that dealt directly with Greek and Roman religion. I realized that if one were to go back thousands of years, to ancient Greece and Rome, one would find that those people believed in Athena and Apollo and Artemis and Zeus and Hercules and so on and so forth just as strongly as some people believe in the Christian God--yet, very few people seriously worship the Greco-Roman gods anymore. They're classified as "myths". Studying religious history, I found a number of other examples of religions that were once seriously worshipped, but now have been relegated to books on mythology. And I realized something: Christianity, or Hinduism, or Judaism, is no more special than those religions; in five thousand years, people will be writing texts about the "mythical God" and these people called "Christians" who worshipped this guy.

It was then that I realized that it is purely human arrogance to say that we, as a species, are too "beautifully created" to cease to exist upon death. For better or for worse, I believe that is what happens: one dies, one rots, one turns to earth. And that's that. It sounds like a sad way to live one's life, but I realized something else: when one is dead, one won't care about one's fate; and even though his friends may be terribly upset, at least they are still living. In was at this point that I decided that the key to happiness and balance in life is not to live so one can get into a mythical heaven, but rather, to live so one makes the most of everyday, and grows and matures as a person as much as one can.

Another deciding factor was in looking at the world around me. I decided that if I were to buy into the idea of a deity, then the god must be like the Judaist "jealous, vengeful god". I simply cannot buy into the fact that, given all the destruction in the world, God is an almight, benevolent force. I understand the idea of free will and can somewhat buy into that, but what about destruction such as the tsunami in the Indian Ocean last December, or Hurricane Rita? How does the concept of a benevolent god play into those disasters?

In the end, I've found that science is a much better explanation for the world around me. Science requires some faith, just like a religion, but at least concepts can be proven, I feel, rather than just relying on blind faith. I think it offers much better explanations than religion.

i really don't wanna sound arrogant or offensive, but if i have a trace of it, plz understand...i'm just trying to figure some stuff out.

if you so believe that there is no god, that there's nothing after life, and that science explains everything. plz explain to me then how you were created, why you even bother with morality (cuz you won't be judged about your wrong), and how u think the world was created with scientific explanations. how the world EVOLVED from absolute nothing. it's kinda hard to belive that NOTHING...just turned into something all of a sudden. doesn't matter how many billions year back. it was still NOTHING.

Why do we deal with morality? Because I don't know. Maybe people are just inherently good creatures. I'd like to believe that, but I don't know if I'm just being naiive.

You're right, science at this point doesn't have much of a stand when it comes to creation. But there is still a sperm and an egg that combine to form a human being. That's science, not God. And not to be confrontational, but even in Christian beliefs, nothing did turn into something all of the sudden.


I like that first paragraph... Actually, the whole thing. Nicely said, and I see that. I just started this topic because I feel no matter what, it's like a shadow that follows me around. This so-called "faith". It's like a splinter in my mind I can't seem to get rid of. I can say "I don't believe in god, i don't believe in god" all I want. I still doubt my doubting.... does that make sense? I don't know. Sorry, I'm horrible at this writing business.

Well, to be honest, I'm not clear on the issue of the origin of the universe--this is knowledge I have not researched in-depth. I think it's somewhat explainable if time is defined as a function of the expansion of the universe. Since the universe is constantly expanding to a point, then contracting back into nothingness, this would mean that time is not linear, but rather cyclical in nature--there is no beginning or end. Aside from the initial creation of a certain amount of matter, however, the scientific theories about the creation of the universe do largely make a lot of sense. If you want to argue that nothing was turned into something, of course, then from a religious standpoint, one could argue: how did God come into being in the first place?

In terms of morality, I don't think of morals and ethics as something that is based completely on religion. I think that inherent in human nature one can find some basic moral principles. Why do I live morally? Why don't I go out and kill people when they anger me, or steal, or cheat, or lie excessively? Because I believe in being nice to people and leading as good a life as possible--not because I will be rewarded for it, but because it is simply the right thing to do. How moral is it, I ask, to live morally just because you expect a reward for it?

Of course, the more I read about intelligent design, the more I do buy into it; however, I think it only makes sense if one accepts that the Creator is not necessarily a kind, benevolent deity, but also (maybe even simultaneously) a malevolent one. He would have to be, in my mind; why else would he allow such destruction to occur? If I create something that I love, I normally try to avoid destroying my creation; however, if I am ambivalent about a creation, I'm not terribly concerned about what happens to it. I imagine a god could feel quite the same way; of course, that leaves the problem that, for the most part, God is ambivalent towards earth and the people on it, which is more unsettling than settling, to say the least.

im jewish (well not really...actually), and grew up that way. i went to synagogue most saturdays, acted like a normal kid..sometimes singing the prayers, sometimes doodling or folding the programs into shapes...i actually used to braid my dads tallis (prayer shall). but...i never really believed it. i guess i lost my sense of belief really young...too young. my parents fought all the time, my dad would yell at me, and i never understood why. so i used to pray to god everynight to make my parents happy, and he never did. and i couldnt believe that any god would ever let a child suffer every day like that....so i stopped believing. and today im agnostic.

I'm agonistic. The only reason I'm not athiest is because everyonce in a while, this thought while come o my head about there being something out there. Not a God persay, but something. I feel like I beleive it, but after a half-hour or so it goes away. I'm pretty sure ot's a false-belief. Like when you find out Santa isn't real, and you liked the thought so much you still beleived he was real, even though he wasn't and you knew it.

If there is something out there, there is no possible way we can know. Like mipadi has said before, the things that people believed so strongly in before, have now been written into myths. The same will come soon to the religions of today.

you're right about creationism also dealing with nothing turning into something. however, for me it seems a lot more believable that some type of powerful and eternal being or god created this incredibly complex and beautiful world. rather than believing that nothing....EVOLVED into something. especially something this complex.

there's also the flagellum theory that completely disproves slow mutation. cuz for the flagellum's motor to have worked and evolved....dozens of different working parts must have evolved all at the exact same time, to motorize and swirl its tail. cuz if just one of those things were missing, that flagellum motor would be useless. and since evolution states that orgamisms rid of things useless to them, then the flagellum motor would have gotten rid of the other few dozens of particles for the motor wouldn't have worked, and therefore gotten rid of cuz it was useless.

though science explains how things work....it doesn't explain how u became a person (this argument only works if you believe in souls), why you are existing, what is the point of our existence, what happens after our death, what is our purpose in life, how this world came to be (evolution is just a little too skimpy), etc etc.

to me those questions are very important cuz i base my lifestyle through those questions. you might not believe these things are not important, but then if you don't why even bother replying me or starting this topic. you're gonna die anyway and vanish forever...so why matter? what's the point of finding this out if in the end...you're still gonna die and cease to exist.

again...if i sound offensive...i'm really sorry. i'll put in a smily face just for you

How can who you are as a person only be explained through the use of souls?

Haha... nah, nowhere near offensive. It's wonderful to ask questions and argue. I love it. Few people do these days.

I'm not saying I don't believe you, though. It's just hard to break out of routines. I want to see the world from another angle, so I can come back and have greater consistency in my Christian life. I want to believe it knowing I chose it. (I'm like.. repeating the same thing I wrote ten times over)

I'd like to believe we cease to exist after this, and you know, if you're gonna argue that humans have souls, how do you explain animals not having it? They were created just the same, weren't they? Why are humans so superior?

And I believe evolution and creationism works side by side, but that's another topic for another day :)

Science actually can explain that. Genetics, brain waves, emotions, it goes into a very long and very complicated topic that I don't want to go into, and that I don't know a whole lot about.

This whole purpose of life thing, we have the same purpose as everyother species. To keep other species in order (food-chain). Just because we are intellegent doesn't mean that we are going to be going on some huge quest that is going to change the universe.

i'll say again...although creation also lacks to prove how god came to being in the first place from nothing....to me, it sounds a lot more convincing that a existing all powerful, eternal God/Being created this wonderfuly complex and beautiful world out of nothing. Rather than absolutely Nothing...turned into Something just because there was a big bang explosion from chemicular particles that were actually nothing which were mutating into something. that might sound a little confusing but you get the idea.

and about morals.... one doesn't always act morally to get a reward. they do it cuz they know it's the right thing to do.. like what you said. the belief of creationism might lead us to believe that there might be rewards for our morality, for an example, heaven. every human being has a desire. is the desire to want to go to heaven after death so immoral? God doesn't say we go to heaven by our good acts. God says we go to heaven if we believe in him and the fact that jesus died for our sins. true christians who act morally do it cuz they won't to glorify god...not to go to heaven...cuz they know they're already going to heaven. and of course there's many corrupted chrsitians in the world. pastors are no exceptions. but there are so many numerous christians who truly believe in God and in his ways.

in my opinion (which u guys my completely disagree with) i firmly believe that a design must have a desiger, a creation must have a creator, and moral guidelines must have been set by a moral being.

but u forget...all behavior in ANY animal had to do with its survival....

the early human probably worked independently or in small families and groups, maybe killed and ate other humans....but eventually, they got the idea that if they work in bigger numbers and cooperating WITHOUT KILLING, they can survive more easily...humans gathered in settlements that became villages, that became cities ect....

that idea that if they did not kill eachother and instead worked together to survive, was then imprinted and carried on into the nature and characteristics of present humans that we now call our "morals"....

all church does is help you to grow in god. like other people have said, you can be a christian without going to church.


i didnt grow up christian myself, i used to beleive the same as that philosipher guy (i thought we just died and had no soul). but my friend invited me to church and thats when i got saved and accepted jesus into my heart. my family isnt really a big religious one. my dad doesnt really beleive in god i dont think, but my mom does. i think my grandparents are the most faithful people in my family....

i know growing up christian may seem hard cause you have to fight temptations, but its all worth it in the end...

see the world from another angle eh? well you've argued with the right person. you see...cuz of my parent's occupation i have lived abroad for most my life...(korea, California, europe (mostly germany), Middle East (bahrain, jordan, soon going to iraq). i have moved schools 10 times and lived in dorms since 8th grade. all this to say i have socialized, lived with, and met TONS of different types of ppl. Muslims, christians, buddhists, nihilits, atheists, confucionsists, goths, satanists, not-give-a-damnists, creationists, etc. i freaking lived with them. my point is out of all these people, i realized the people that were most truly happy, bright, moral, and hopeful were christians. Of course i'm not saying that everyone is. but most of them were....especially compred to the others. though you might argue "just cuz they're happy doesn't mean they're right"....i dunno, i think these qualities of happniess, and all the things listed above are very essential to human life.

though there might be millions of happy non-christians, how do they truly feel about the fact that there's nothing afterwards....that all that they did...everyone they loved, everthing that ever meant something to them would be all completely useless and gone once they've died. i dunno about you but i wouldn't be too happy. what's the point of saving the world from pollution if you're gonna die anyways. cuz you need to save the children? well they're gonna die anyways too and i won't matter jack to them once they've vanished from existence. what's the point of giving charity to orphanages when the orphans themselves are doomed with the same fate as the privelged us when we all die and vanish forever.

how do i explain that animals don't have souls? well do you believe in souls? My main reason i can give you is unfortunately biblical so it might not matter to you. God tells us to go save other people's from damnation and evangelize to them. never says anything about saving animals. Why are humans superior to animals? cuz in genesis it says God created Adam to rule his creation. to rule the animals and name them.

I believe humans are superior to animals cuz we have souls. but to explain to you that we have souls and animals don't in a secular way...well um...one weak argument is that people cloned animals. i refuse to believe that scientists can clone souls. but they have cloned healthy animals that live normally. therefore animals don't have souls. cuz if they could live without a soul, then why have a soul in the first place? cuz it's not like the soul's gonna go anywhere after death...(this of course is a non-biblical argument). do you understand what i'm getting at?
what's the point of having souls...if we could live without them...and even if we had them we wouldn't need it after we die. therefore animals don't have souls.
correct me if you think i'm wrong or weak at some areas. cuz i'm trying to figure this out myself too (except the biblical arguments kinda show it to me all).

by the way...u korean??? u look asian in your pic

what i meant was ...who i am as a person that makes me different and unique from other people...and very different from animals. and also if one believes that the souls continues to live on after death, it is very important in explainng who you are as a person. of cousrse there's the other physical things, but i believed the soul was most important cuz that's what's really important cuz it lives on after death. (in my opinion...don't blame u if you completely disagree with me and belive that there's nothing after death)

Humans are animals. We just have a more developed brain, we're more intellegent. Well, some of us are anyway. (Reference to other topics, ignore)

Of course, I'm interested in the biblical aspect. Don't get me wrong... I'm not condemning Christianity. I'm arguing against accepting what was taught to you.

As far as happiness goes, let's say one fully believes there is a God and they spend their life following that. What if God really doesn't exist? That's an entire lifetime wasted, when you could've gottan piss drunk at that party just for the hell of it, saved the time on Sunday for a picnic (or earned some money at work), fell in love with the same sex, or whatever else makes life life for you. We could've done whatever we wanted. And we didn't. For what? Worshipping a figment of our imagination.

Yes, just disappearing and decaying is a depressing thought. But at least we enjoyed the time we had.

What's the point of all those things? Our need for survival. Living as long as we can, as well as we can. For our own sake. Not for God's.

I'd like to believe in souls. Unfortunately, I'm not too sure what that consists of.

People can very well clone people too, just like animals. But then there's that whole ethic that keeps us back. And when it comes down it, humans are animals too, aren't they?

Yes... I am indeed Korean. Haha.

aight sorry...let me rephrase that "humans are superior to OTHER animals because we have souls and they dont"

but this argument only works if you're either christian, buddhist, muslim, or any other religion or belief that humans have souls. i can disprove the argument that animals have souls too

Amazing.
Somehow, this thread turn out to be some sort of debate now.
It's time for the moderator to move it.

Indeed

the reason why i'm posting so many comments about this is cuz i'm in jordan right now and it's a forsaken desert country and i have jack else to do

let's say that a person decided to be a christian and sacrifice other "worldly temptations" and lived a moral christian life and was happy about it. (cuz true christians are happy about their christian life). but then he died. and there was nothing afterwards. the point is...he doesn't know about how he wasted he life. he died. what's more important is...he lived a happy life. just like a secular person would have his "happy" life by partying every other night and getting high every tuesdays. because he ceases to exist he never realizes that he could've done other things...BUT he STILL lived a happy life. if one believes that there's nothing afterwards...his only reason to be living would to live happily and do what he wants...right? well the christian who died lived happily and became a christian in his own will. he has the same right to be a christian just as a non christian person to be a non christian. you said..."at least we enjoyed the time we had". partying might not be the only way to be happy. a lot of people become VERY happy through worshipping and praising God. being happy by being high or drunk or having premarital sex can be enjoyable (however for only temporarily during the act). but praising god and worshipping him leaves christians happy for way longer periods of time. a lot of times even permanently


yes....humans have been cloned...but only the embryonic stem cells. and there's no knowing yet if those cloned ESCs have souls in them. for me...i don't even know if uncloned ESCs are even considered human beings and have souls in them. i might be offending dozens of ppl right now...but that's just my opionion. i believe life comes from feelings. (well not only feelings, but it's an important part). however, a ESC does not have a central nervous system...and therefore cannot feel. u get the idea. that's why i believe that human beings (with souls) have not yet been cloned yet. or can get cloned.

ha!! i knew you were korean. a korean can always tell another korean apart form chinese or japanese

Keep cool.


But it's pointless. You followed a truth that wasn't... well... true. It's misleading to others who are still around. Yes, you wouldn't be around to know this, but... it's not right, man. Haha.

The world offers a lot Christianity can't. And hope that can actually be substantiated. The hope God offers... it's never without doubt. Unless you just have that much faith, which I commend you for.

aight then...if you want it the straight-answer logical way...let's put it this way

there's a 50/50 chance that christianity's wrong or right.
Situation 1) There is a God - you believe in God and die.
you go to heaven and live eternally happy.

Situation 2) There is a God - you don't believe in God and die.
you go to hell and live in eternal damnation

Situation 3) There is no God - you believe in God and die.
you lived a happy life as a christian and died. nothing more

Situation 4) There is no God - you don't believe in God and die.
you lived a happy life doing whater u wanted to do and died. nothing more.


sounds kinda selfish and unchristian like to say..but i'll take my chances and go to heaven. if i don't...well at least i lived a happy life.

better than living a happy life then dying to find out i'll end up in hell. OR have a happy secular life. which i would have been just as happy if i lived a christian life....except there was a lesser risk of going to hell.


i know i should never put God or christianity in percentages like this, or become a christian just because it seems safer..... cuz i don't. that's not why i'm christian.
but i'm just explaining to you in a non-christian logical way why being a christian ain't so bad

I'm not saying being a Christian is baddd.... I'm saying you shouldn't just accept what was fed to you. I'd rather be wrong by my own right than follow my parents and my Church like sheep.

And you know, the doctrine can be interpretted in so many ways. I could follow Calvinism, which doesn't necessarily agree with Arminianism. So who goes to heaven? Both require you to accept God (or Jesus or whatever other name you wish to give) as your savior; but both live different lives, and follow different beliefs. So who goes to heaven?

The fact of the matter is, Christianity and the Bible are so obscure and vague. If we're gonna talk logically, the argument that makes the MOST sense is the idea that we're finished after this.

But this world isn't very logical.

I sooo agree with you!! I was "raised" Christian too and as a kid i was always forced to go to church...and my parents didn't let us see Pg-13 or rate R movies...then we stopped going to church (it's been 5 years since i went to my church) and my parents let me make my own choices (except for the fact that i still can't drink acohol because i am under age lol) but they realize i am an adult (20 yrs old) and I am wise enough to make a decision...and the hwole Christian thing, I am still a Christian, I can never see myself no believeing in God...my parents didn't make me believe in him, It's hard to explain, but I think once the Lord makes a home in your heart, it's hard to kick him out!!!! (not that i would want to) I really like being a christian, I feel something that I can;t explain everytime I talk to another believer or if I join a fellowship or a Harvest Crusade...it's an awesome feeling.

oh man.....i've debated about this so many times before im getting sick of this topic...

^ Please don't spam.

Ok. People can be perfectly moral in their own right and live happy, fullfilling lives without trying to make God happy. I'm an atheist, and really, I'm more moral than any of the oh-so-wonderful Christians at my school. I would rather live to make myself happy than follow what someone else thinks I should do. Really, that would make me a lot happier. I wouldn't have to feel bad anytime I did something. I live by my own morals, and really, just because I'm atheist doesn't mean I'm horrible and sad and immoral. That's such a sad misconception and I really hate when people think that.

I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't do any drugs, I'm a virgin, I've never committed a crime...How immoral am I? Just because I don't believe means I don't have as good of morals as you? Just because I don't believe means my life has no point and it's less of a happy life than yours? No. My life is fine, and I'm no less happy than anyone else. My life has purpose. My purpose is not to spend my life trying to please God, but to please myself. My goal is not to get into Heaven, it is to spend my life making myself and others around me happy. I don't live to please someone who I can't even have proof of existing. I don't live to be rewarded. Personally, I would think that would be a pretty sad way to live. That's more immoral to me - that's like sucking up to someone to get a higher position in a job or something. I live for myself.

This post was directed at dahoonpride cause that's the vibe I'm getting.

Well said Mipadi, I totally agree, Same values. Except I never joined a study group or anything. Hell, I'm not even christian or any branch.

God is real
Heaven and hell IS real
and waiting to see doesn't help you - _ -x

Wow, gee. Really?

well first of all, i never said atheists were all immoral and sad and horrible. and i never said all christians are perfectly moral and perfect. there are so many freaking ppl that call themselves chrstians though they're really not. just cuz they go to church don't mean they're christian. not all "christians" truly saved, not all muslims fast during the ramadan and pray five times a day, not all annihilists have killed themselves yet, not all buddhists worship buddha. all i said was to eunie is that with living with all these different types of ppl christians obviously stood out as more happy, moral, and bright for their future compared to the others. and like you..of course there are exceptions. i'm just saying the majority of the people.

lots of people think christians are selfish and only wanna become christians cuz they get to go to heaven. what kind of bullcrap is that? unless one doesn't become one himself they will NEVER understand the joy and fullness they get when worshipping God. Our first priority and desire is to worship God and glorify him. heaven's just the reward. true seekers of God are rewarded. true seekers of heaven don't get to know God. i have NEVER worshipped god so that i wanted to go heaven. worshipping god in itself was an incredibly happy moment for me which i enjoyed. if it was only to go to heaven...why choose christianity? there's thousands of other religions that offer the way to heaven. other religions with more freedom to do whatever i please.

true christians don't choose heaven first, cuz there's millions of other religions to do that in. true christians always puts God first, and heaven as a tremendously grateful gift.

you said your purpose in life was to be happy and live your life. well i never said anything against it and i won't. i'm just feel bad cuz ppl like you believe that there's nothing afterwards. when i was a non christian i occasionally thought of after death and i felt horrible. the fact that we vanquish into nothing....all the ppl we loved and cared for, everything we ever cared for....just completely useless. it'll be horrible to think of this in the deathbed...just waiting to die...and forever be gone.

and about what u said. we ain't sucking up to a person in a higher position. we're worshipping God who created us. when you're nice to your parents..does that mean you're sucking up to them? no..it's cuz they're your parents and they conceived you. you have to be grateful to them and show your respect.

the main reason why there's so many denominations is cuz there were disputes about stupid little rituals and about how they should do it. for example...whether ppl should be baptized when they're born, or only when they become a christian. when ppl are baptzied whether they should be sprinkled in water only completely dipped. do you honsetly think God cares how they get baptized? he only looks for the heart. all these division things happened cuz of ppl just had different ideas. not every town council agree on everything. hell the government's always freaking divided among reps. and dem. does that mean one's compltley wrong and one's completely right? they both serve the same purpose to serve the ppl (well in theory anyways), but do it a little differently.

God only looks for if one completely believes in him, that Jesus died for our sins on the cross, and glorify him through it. i don't consider myself in any denomination. i'm still confused with the differences. it's cuz i had to move countries too many times and most third world muslim countries don't have a large variety of churches. but i ain't worried that my calvinist friend is going to heaven and i'm not. as long as my calvinist friend believes in god and glorifies him and i do the same...i know for sure i'll be seeing him around after we die

Not all Buddhists worship Buddha but can still be called Buddhists because Buddhism is NOT all about worshiping; it's also a way of life. A Buddhist acknowledges the way of life and trying to live it first, then worship. The former, more important and more necessary to the religion than the latter. So, this example doesn't fit with the rest of your analogies. I only wanted to point this out because I don't want you to misunderstand the religion.

Your comment about Christians are more happy, more moral with bright futures...etc, is truly biased, somewhat arrogant and cynical. I'd like to discuss with you how you came to such a conclusion. In that respect, I would like to share my opinion that Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Christians and all the rest have the equal opportunity to be happy and moral because it's more dependent on one's outlook on life rather than one's religion.

About morality, too many people think that religion and morality are one and the same, when in fact, morality existed long before the coming of religion. Religion now champions morality because people cannot understand that Right and wrong are human instinct, and that Good and evil, usually affiliated with religion, comes later. Our survival depends on right and wrong, and our living is beyond good and evil. To say that people of one religion is more moral than the rest is so very problematic that I don't even know where to begin debunking it. So, if you would indulge me, explain why you think Christians are more moral.

Now you said Heaven is a reward for glorifying God and believing that Jesus died for our sins, I'd like to question that, too. Christians say that their God is all loving and all forgiving, if He is all that then why does He only rewards those who glorify Him and the Son? Doesn't that means He only loves few and spites others? After all, if one was truly "forgiving" in all aspects, then one would be able to forgive all things in all ways, including disbelief.



I really, really get irritated when Christians say that they feel bad that I'll go to Hell. This annoyance is directed towards the pity that demeans all that I believe in. I would never say "Christians believe blindly" because that's unfair and shows intorlerance of others. Thus, I'd like the same respect and consideration in turn, but a lot of Christians just can't give it. This is the reason, I think, why so many people (in the free world) bash Christians. Tolerance works both ways.

I'm not Christian, but when I think about Death, I think about Life. I'll admit though, that I get sad when I think of the possibility that a person just dies with no afterlife to look forward to, but I also think life is so full of wonders of love and joy, even hate, that I believe that Death is a just end. Nothing "horrible" about it. (Off note, to those who know my views on capital punishment, this is why I feel what I feel about murderers.)


One who is claimed to be all forgiving and loving, in all respect, should.


I will not contest that a Creator made life because I wouldn't know how, but I think science disproves the Bible as much as the Bible disproves science.


Since this is a famous saying, explain to me exactly how giving us free will equates to loving us.

It's because people have free will that people make others suffer. It's because of free will that what is wrong persists to challenge what is right. Yes, I am saying that free will as much the cause of suffering as it is the cause of our happiness.

Well, then what's the point of even going to church and getting baptized and taking part in communion (which is also a contraversial issue amongst denominations) or even being a part of a religion at all?


With all due respect (and I do respect you because I've seen you around the debate forums), one has to ask to be forgived in order to be forgiven. It's not like the grace was ever denied; It was always there. The person just didn't accept it.

As far as free will goes... like you said, it's as much a cause for our suffering as our happiness. But then who's fault is that? Would you rather God hadn't given us free will, and caused us to follow him around like prisoners? (Although, in every aspect, that is what Christianity is.... Haha)

But in my heart, I believe he wanted us to make the choice for ourselves. So we knew it was by our own conviction. You know that saying? "If you love something, let it go. If it doesn't come back..." Yeah, you know the story. I'm sorry to put something so adolescent into this discussion. It just seemed to fit.

One who is claimed to be all forgiving should forgive, whether or not it is asked. Forgiving when forgiveness is not asked takes a big heart. Is this God capable of it?

Oh, thanks by the way. I'm not supposed to be posting all that much, but the debate forum is one of my favs.

I'm sure he's capable, as the claim is he's capable of anything. But if a mother gives a son a present, and the son doesn't open it, the mother's not gonna tear it open for him. Is the mother, who went through the thought and concern to get him the gift the one without heart? Or is it the son, who never gave mind?


Haha, you're welcome.

I'm not sure I see the analogy. Wouldn't your example be more akin to God willingly giving forgiveness, but a person not accepting it?

Unless you mean to say that the gift is love, in which case God is giving it, but it is not accepted; however, I still don't find that to be a perfect analogy with God willingly forgiving.

If it had to do with willingness, the mother would've offered to give him a gift, not actually given it to him. But you're right, it would fit more along the lines of love. But they go hand in hand, don't they?

To me, anyway.

They do, but Fae is discussing the point that if God is so great, he'd willingly forgive out of sheer goodness, rather than making one ask explicitly.

Who's at fault is our suffering and happiness? Free will, which came from God. We wouldn't be following God around like prisoners because we would be happy since He allows us to be with Him. If loving God and following God tantamounts to imprisonment, then why do so many Christians do so? Why would we want Heaven, an imprisonment? I would rather God does what people claim He does: gift us with free will, but forgive us for all that free will causes, which again includes disbelief.

The saying does fit, if you love something, let it go. However, if it doesn't come back, don't condemn it to the blackest part of your world, which is Hell.



The all forgiving, all loving mother, regardless, should forgive the son for not accepting the present. It doesn't seem fair, I know, but God is claimed to be all loving, all forgiving. Such a claimed should bear some proof.



and, yea, what Michael said, too.

Yeah, I don't like the Hell aspect of Christianity so much either.


It's not so much asking for it explicitly, as desiring it. I'm sure none of us do a wrong thing, wanting not to be forgiven. But there are certain rules and creeds we have to follow if you're a part of the Christian faith. One has to adapt to what god says is right or wrong, and one might not necessarily agree with them, but that's tough. If one accepts Jesus as his savior, one has to follow his laws. You can't just go and live your own life with no God, and expect to go to heaven, because quite simply: If you believed in a heaven, you would have to have believed in God. If you don't believe that, you're not following Christianity (And don't get me wrong. You might be perfectly right for it. But that's another topic)

you guys post too fast.


Why would someone, like me for example, desire forgiveness for a fault that free will, the gift, allowed me to make? God gave the gift of Free Will, but condemns us for utilizing it?

in other words, why fault the choice free will allowed me to make?

But free will doesn't mean everything you do is right. It's not a ticket to do whatever you want. I mean... it is. But free will just means you can make the right choice or the wrong choice. He didn't lead us choose the right one, nor lead us to make the wrong one. If we make the wrong choice (by our own accord), we're not exactly gonna get rewarded for it. If we expect to... why do we even hold ourselves back from all those sins? It's true most people are inherently good people, but there are simply those who aren't. It's not for me to judge, but honestly, if everyone was good, we'd be in some sort of Pleasantville or Utopia. I'd like to see you in heaven, I would. Whether you believed in God or not. But I wouldn't want a mass murderer living next door. I wouldn't really want to see him burn in hell either, but I'm not the one making the judgements.

I'm not saying that we should be rewarded for making wrong choices, but I'm saying that we shouldn't be punished for eternity for making those wrong choices either, excluding those who actually abuse free will to the extreme. Lets say you and I are best friends and you gave me a flower and told me I can do anything with it, I'd have the following choices: to keep it for myself, to give it to someone else, or to throw it away. If I choose to give it to someone else, it would be because I thought it would make someone else as happy as you've made me. However, if I chose to throw it away, it's not because I don't love you or care for you, it's because I just don't like flowers. You can't make me like flowers and you shouldn't stop being friends with me just because I threw away your flower. It was my choice to throw away your flower, a choice you gave me when you said I can do anything with it.

I see what you're saying, but in your example, all those choices were -good- choices, with explanations that meant well behind all of them. It's not always so black and white, though.

And maybe I'm wrong, but if I feel like I would want you to keep the flowers even if you hated them, out of thought for me.

Is it just me, or is God starting to sound like an overbearing boyfriend?

Well, not all of us are bad, that's why the choices were good. Just because I don't believe in the Christian God doesn't mean I'll rape, pillage, and murder. I'm as moral minded as anyone else who's not raping, pillaging and murdering or hurting others on purpose. I'm just someone who makes mistakes as I live my life and I would like all those mistakes to be forgiven, but not at the expense of what I believe in. Things aren't black and white, but they needn't be complex either.

I completely understand, but unfortunately, out of thought for me, you shouldn't have given me a flower in the first place, knowing that I don't like flowers. I'd cherish it if you'd ask it first of me, but you gave me the free will to do with it as I like. As God, you just forced me to keep the flower out of guilt. I would keep it to please you, but in doing so, my free will is limited. That end contradicts with the Gift of free will.