I've lived a pretty dogmatic life. I haven't known much else. I started talking to a friend who's a philosophy major, and he up and tells me he thinks we just disappear after this. We have no soul, no spirit. We just live and die, and decompose. Like we never existed.

It's kind of pointless then. To live a Christian life.

I've been trying to get away from it since the end of high school. Christianity, I mean. But no matter how hard I try, it's so hard for me to believe that this is it. That there's no heaven or hell. Then I think about all the years I've wasted going to church and essentially just talking to the ceiling in my room.

It's just as easy for me to doubt it all.

Anyway, the point of my topic. If you've grown up in a church, you've probably noticed how much stronger the fire is in the newborn Christian. Growing up with it... it just makes everything mundane and routine. Have you ever denounced Christianity, just so you can have that newborn fire? Do you think it's a sin? To want to experience the world and gain some sort of insight before blindly following the faith?

hey Young Eun,

for me, i think life's too short to live without conviction. if i dont have a conviction for something, i simply dont do it.

..actually i would be lying if i said so. there's many things im doing now that i dont have any conviction for whatsoever. but its a means to a higher end. maybe that is conviction in itself.

but where does my convictions come from? from me, and me alone. conviction doesnt come from following the motions, it comes from within.

Hey!... I didn't think you were around.

I don't know. Sorry about how disorganized my post was. I was just tired, I guess.

Wouldn't you have more conviction if you knew you -chose- the faith? Not just lived with it like some tumor.

Haha... this is really petty, isn't it? I wish it went deeper than that.

I've been in church since I could walk...And I still have that fire. Sometimes, it's greater or less than other times...It goes up and down, but there's still a fire. You have to do stuff to fuel that fire though. Missions, church camp, witnessing...Stuff like that...It revives you. It makes you strong. Your fire for God will never die...Not if you truly believe and stuff...But yeah...

You can always talk to me about it.

And yes, I believe denouncing God is a sin. Peter denied Jesus three times, but then he came back to the Lord, and the Lord accepted him.

There IS a Heaven...and a Hell. You don't want to go to the second one.
God bless and I'm here if you need me.

I have a friend that feels the same way, but I don't know what to think. I'll find out one day.

I know exactly what you mean when you talk about growing up Christian and just going through the normal routines. I grew up going to church every Sunday and going to religious education once a week. However, for a lot of kids in my church, what makes or breaks their religious faith is usually on this church retreat weekend that we have to go on sophomore year in order to be confirmed into the church. Most people go into the weekend with a really bad attitude, expecting that it's going to be a boring and dull weekend. Most people go home on Sunday with a strengthened relationship with God. I believe that it's not what happens on that weekend or who talks on that weekend that makes you believe...it's what you get out of it. Nobody can make you believe but yourself. I know there are people out there that have different beliefs or none at all and I respect their opinions. However, my opinion is that there are some things that happen in this world that are unexplainable without believing in a higher being. I know I wrote a lot and I really want to write more but I'm already late for my doctor's appointment.

For me, as a little girl, I never got to go to shurch. Then I made friends with a girl, so I went to shurch with her. willingly. It was so exciting to be around this group of people who beleived in someting. They sang songs and gave out free candy too. That didn't hurt. And then I moved away from my mom and in with my cousin, who was very very religious. I wasnt allowed to watch Rugrats. She used to get this Christian movie guide that would count all cuss words, even divide them into categories like hell and damn versus the f word and if they said Gods name in vain, it counted sexual references, implies nudity, sex scenes, homosexual references, everything. Then it gave it an entertainment rating and a Christianity rating. out of 4 stars positive and negative. There was even an entrie reveiw. I wasnt allowed to see the mummy, becuase it got -1.5 stars, because it was "encouraging the occult". It was rediculous. So for a long time I didn't like being Christian. I wasn't trusted, I wasnt allowed to go anywhere or do anything. I wished I could be like everyone else whos families werent religious when they were aloowed to go seemovies and go to parties and have fun. But then I stopped going to church, ( we all did) and the movie reveiws stopped. I was allowed to make my own decicions, and learn what i wanted to about religion and what not. And here I am, almost 20, still a Christian. I try to pray everyday, just to find strength to have faith. I find that going through this hell hole of a world is a lot easier when you've got the big man on your side. But it is hard sometimes. One minute I'm praying, then next I've forgotten what I'm doing, and I'm up to trouble. And I pray all the time that God can help me keep my mind on track, because I've lost the initial fire as well. But the best thing for you to do is just want it. If you want the fire, you may not get it, but you will get a renewed sense of faith, and that may just help get you through the day. And I hope you can find what you are looking for. :)

my dad is atheist but my mom is christian. i actually have no idea whether my mom believes in God anymore because she doesn't go to church nor does she want to. my grandparents are very religious and conservative which is the opposite of my dad. i'm atheist and my dad is probably the reason i am..not that he forced me to be but it just helps to have parents that are completely different (well, their families) becuase then you can decide on your own what you want to be. i think life's a lot better if you get away from Christianity because you can choose your own path and you don't have to follow the bible or go to church just because your parents force you to.

I know what you mean, and it's really hard to say. It's becoming increasingly more difficult for me to maintian my religious beliefs. There are so many things that suggest there is no God, but I've been raised to believe there is, so as hard as I want to believe He exists, I'm skeptical. However, even if the world was formed scientifically, where did everything else come from? I don't know.

For me, I felt like I didn't have as much conviction up until my Confirmation. After that, I knew I was a Catholic because I chose so, not because my parents wanted me to be one.

There are a lot of challenges. I think I've spent more time in science class than I have in church. I've heard many arguments saying God doesn't exist, that he didn't really create life, that religion is for the weak. But in the end, there is more proof for me that God exists than there is evidence supporting some of the scientific theories we learn in school.

im sure a christian life isnt pointless.
and thats all i have to say.

First of all, Jusun, it is so encouraging to see the faith of the guy who started all of this. Seriously.

Second of all, yeah, I was "raised" Christian, but I made my own choices about it. Being a Christian doesn't mean going to church, it means having a personal relationship with Jesus... and you decide that for yourself.

I agree with all of the above! ^

Being a Christian is your choice as well, and you can still choose your own path even if you ARE one.

You see where I'm coming from. I'm relieved
But you're no stranger to the pattern of retreats. How long does that fire last... you know? We always come back and say "This is it! I swear this time it's different! I'll make every day like a retreat!" Come a week, two weeks, or two days... we all know how it ends.

But there are those people who hold on so strong. They're the ones that keep me from throwing this away all together. Somethings gotta give 'em that strength, right?...


Haha! The same thing happened to me. Well... we didn't have a rating system. I just remember I couldn't watch Charmed (but I did), read Harry Potter (that I would've read... if I read), or watch Pokemon (I don't even know where that one came from)

Thank you for your words of encouragement though... You are quite the lady.


That's so true. But you know... and I'm not arguing... science is a work in progress. Who knows if ten thousand years from now, we'll discover the secret to life. DNA was only discovered... what... 60 years ago? We've only begun.

I will never denounce my religion. Well, sometimes, I think about that too. I mean, if we're dead and all, that's it. We ain't going no where. But whenever I think of these doubtful thoughts, I ask myself, "Is that even possible?"

So, do you think religion versus science equal to ______?

As a philosopher, they do a lot of scientific thinking. Maybe that’s why he didn’t think being Christian is that great because the proof of God's existence cannot be discover.

Religion and science are beneficial in many ways. First of all, religion changes a person’s life through the rules of the bible and influences from one another. This means, the religious ideas actually protect people from wrongdoing actions. Science can also protect people too! That’s why we have pills, drugs, sexual protection, and medicines. Basically, it has something to do with logic explanations, proof , evidences, and common sense, not religion's existence.

if u find a watch lying in the sand on a beach... the first thing you do is wonder who's watch it might've been right? and someone made that watch right? the sand didn't just make something as intricated, delicate, and perfect out from nothing. someone made it... just like us... someone created us... some people say we evolved from the simplest forms of life but then who created life in the first place... I don't think any condtion in this universe can create any form of life on its own... I think God is 100% real and therefore heaven and hell exists... I dont think heaven is really up in the clouds nor that hell is beneath the earth... those are just comparisons... heaven and hell is a spiritual realm in a place and form currently unknown to us... I'm just putting in my thoughts and I respect what everyone else thinks... ^__^

well i've been in a roman catholic school since kindergarten...i still am now in my senior year. i've been raised and baptized as a catholic and my parents both are...my dad is somewhat religious, but my mom is the typical hypocritical christian.
to be honest though, i've never been much of a believer. i respect the faith and the rituals like mass and so on, but i don't really believe in god. i'm not quite atheistic though...more like agnostic. i don't really have a faith that there is a god or not. it doesn't really seem like a priority to me.
*shrug* yeah. thats me.

My dad grew up Christian and my mom grew up Jewish. They didn't raise us too religiously, and I'm atheist now. Just makes a lot more sense to me. I'm a very logical person and I analyze things like crazy.

Anyway...I guess I don't really have much to contribute to the topic, seeing as I've never really been all too Christian (though according to Christian morals and values, I'm a hell of a lot more Christian than some of the people in my school who claim to be so pure and true..hmm..).

yeah i wasn't a growning up christian yet i still have some growning up to do. But i do slip at times but not majorly. I love God. And i always knoe that He is there. But sometimes my "fire" will be blown out but then it turns back on by the grace of God. So i never loose that fire. God is always there for me. And He's there for you. He's just waiting on You. Even if you did grow up in a christian family. But did you really feel God's power and love. I knoe i did. When i had to move churches away from my family.

bleh. well that's just me. and some other ppl.

but there is a Heaven and Hell No doubt about that.

ive never really gone to church unless its with the grandparents when i stay the weekend...but seriously...life is too short to try to figure out what is going to happen after it's over, ya know?

I hear that. But an eternity's a long time.

^^let me say this....^^

There is not A SINGLE person who deserves to suffer for ALL of Eternity.....

i refuse to believe there is a God who is so insanely cruel and evil...

Wait, so everyone goes to heaven now? Is that how it is? Hahaha.

^^ no im not saying that at all....im not sure if there is a heaven or afterlife...

but are u saying that Ghandi automatically went to hell to suffer for all eternity? is that how it is?

Well, it depends on what faith you follow. Under Christian beliefs, you could be the greatest person that ever lived, but if you didn't get saved, you're gonna burn.

^ wow...then God is truly an evil and cruel being....

*shrug* He just doesn't need anyone who doesn't believe in him in his world. Who would?

I was baptized, but when I turned three, my parents converted to Buddhism. My dad was too looking for a way out and he found it through this religion. I'm Buddhist too, (chosen my myself) and it has cleared up many things for me.

Life is about learning lessons and becoming a good person. There are many places after death...life has a purpose. Well, that's what I believe.

I believe in karma, and reincarnation...
So basically what goes around comes around whether it was from this life or past ones and everyone has the power inside them to move out of reincarnation on onto a higher level....(nirvana, or a different state of existence). So basically, everyone wins eventually...there is no permanent hell either. Everything is a lesson and an experience to take note of.

. through . my . eyes .

I wish I could believe that, too.
It's a good philosophy... great, even. But I'm stuck with this... I guess that was the point of my post. I can't see from any other angle. Even if the other angle sounds so perfect.

You are never stuck. Only you can make yourself stuck. It just comes down to what you truly believe!

Besides, that's just my personal practice...there are so many out in the world.

Ahhh... you're younger than me, and you know so much more!

I'm just very into my practice, and beliefs.

. on the quest to reach enlightenment .

Best wishes.

good luck to you on seeking knowledge ^_^

Um your friend isn't 100% correct just to point out... you say he's a philosipher right? It's his job to think about that kind of stuff.. no one is 100% about where we're going once we die...

I grew up as a roman catholic, a very strict life. When I turned 12 I started doubting the church. As I read the bible, I noticed that they contradict themselves WAY too much. I mean it says that it's ok to sell your daughter.... and they also say if you ask for forgiveness, you'll be forgiven, but in leviticus there was a verse that kind of says that homosexuality is an UNFORGIVABLE action and status...... Plus when I go to church, I kind of get the feeling they're after the money. And is God really here? My sister said it was God who provided my parents' jobs... Did it ever occur to her that it was THEM who got the jobs? It was THEM who worked hard to get their specialty in medicine.. god didn't do shit. You think it was him who convinced the boss to hire them? HELL NO! Isn't it obvious that everyone chooses for their own free will? So how on earth does he provide my parents' jobs and other living necessities? People say it is god who grows crops on earth but in truth it was the farmers who tended for the crops and the climate to rain and stuff...And to live life for atonement and worshipping? THAT IS NOT WORTH IT. Once I go to heaven what am I gonna do? Sure it's a paradise... to do what? NOTHING BUT WORSHIP EVEN FURTHER! I'd rather stay on Earth and struggle.

To me all these religions are CRAP. I am sorry if I offended anyone here, it's just me and my "beliefs"

My dad had the same thoughts about it growing up. That's why he converted.

He isn't 100% right according to whom? Your truth? His truth has just as much weight as yours. For all we know, he could be right and we'll just be gone like we never existed. Just the same, there might be a heaven and hell, or just some purgatory. You're right, no one knows. But anyone can be right.

The Bible was a work in progress. Times were changing, and the stories and lessons did too. The only thing that remains constant is God as himself. Like on Paul's letter about regarding homosexual practices. He condemned it like nothing else, but you have to understand, at that time homosexuals were mostly prostitutes. There's also a verse on how women have to keep quiet at church. But in that context, the church going women were raucous and incosiderate. It doesn't mean women in modern times have to hide behind curtains and be silent around their men.

Homosexuality is a sin, yes. All sins are forgivable, and thus so is homosexuality. If you keep doing it, with no remorse or without repenting, of course he won't forgive you. He won't forgive you until you actually change.

If this god hadn't created your friend's parents, they wouldn't have had a chance to get the jobs they got. If he hadn't created the boss, there would be no job to earn.

We do have free will. God just knows what choices we make. Just because he knows our path doesn't mean he makes it for us. Sure, I'm sure he has a 'plan' that he'd like us to take, but we won't. Because we're foolish foolish creatures.

This is all Christian beliefs. It's not necessarily mine.

yeah, but most (if not all) Christians that I know are forced to go to church and practice that religion as a child so they can't get away from it. If they did, their parents would disapprove and be extremely disappointed in them.

I guess im a big sinner then huh?

Any how would YOU know if THERE is A heaven or a hell? (Im justing coping the way you type)

I would love to see proof on these two worlds.

you can't say that heaven and hell exists because you have neither experienced either one yourself, or have any proof of its existence....

but can we really say anything is for sure? whose to say our experiences or proof mean anything?

Just because you are raised Christian doesn't mean that's what you must believe. You can't control what you believe. You just think whatever is most reasonable to you. Tracy (D1SMANTLED) was raised strictly Roman Catholic and I explained why I was atheist, and she started reconsidering.

I, like your friend, believe that when we die, our body rots in the ground and that's about it. I don't believe in the afterlife and I don't believe in heaven and hell. If it ends up that I'm wrong and I go to hell simply because I don't believe in God, then oh well. I'm not too concerned with it since I'm pretty set in my ideas. I think it's kinda unfair though..but that's a different subject.

I'm an atheist because I need answers. I need science and logic and something I can see to believe in something. No one has ever been able to tell me where God came from and how he supposedly created everything. There are no answers in deities for me. With the Big Bang theory and evolution, it's something natural that happens. Stars explode in the universe all the time. It's logical to think a gigantic explosion could have happened once with a gigantic star. Why not? It just seems so much more logical...

So anyway..you're not stuck with what your parents tell you to believe, and you don't necessarily need to let them know what you believe (if they'd be dissappointed or something). Believe whatever you believe. No one should make you practice something you don't believe in. Just be who you are and believe what makes more sense to you.

It seems logical to me that God created life. Science has done more to disprove itself than to disprove the Bible. I haven't been introduced facts that made the heterotroph hypothesis the definitive reason for life on this planet. But I do believe that God created life on this planet. Problem is, how do I know God exists? Easy. I talk to him every night.

ohhhhh...wow. I havent posted in this thread because I find it hard to express my religious beliefs and the reasons I believe in God to other people that dont share my faith and you've expressed the way I feel about this issue so perfectly. *speechless*

QUOTE(andromeda_90 @ Sep 23 2005, 10:16 PM)

Um your friend isn't 100% correct just to point out... you say he's a philosipher right? It's his job to think about that kind of stuff.. no one is 100% about where we're going once we die...

I grew up as a roman catholic, a very strict life. When I turned 12 I started doubting the church. As I read the bible, I noticed that they contradict themselves WAY too much. I mean it says that it's ok to sell your daughter.... and they also say if you ask for forgiveness, you'll be forgiven, but in leviticus there was a verse that kind of says that homosexuality is an UNFORGIVABLE action and status...... Plus when I go to church, I kind of get the feeling they're after the money. And is God really here? My sister said it was God who provided my parents' jobs... Did it ever occur to her that it was THEM who got the jobs? It was THEM who worked hard to get their specialty in medicine.. god didn't do shit. You think it was him who convinced the boss to hire them? HELL NO! Isn't it obvious that everyone chooses for their own free will? So how on earth does he provide my parents' jobs and other living necessities? People say it is god who grows crops on earth but in truth it was the farmers who tended for the crops and the climate to rain and stuff...And to live life for atonement and worshipping? THAT IS NOT WORTH IT. Once I go to heaven what am I gonna do? Sure it's a paradise... to do what? NOTHING BUT WORSHIP EVEN FURTHER! I'd rather stay on Earth and struggle.

To me all these religions are CRAP. I am sorry if I offended anyone here, it's just me and my "beliefs"

Exactly. And I mean if God really cares about soooooo much, than why would he make us suffer? And why would he send us to hell? To suffer even more? I thought God told us to love our neighbors. HOW is sending us to hell loving us?

And I think it's bullshit when people say that they feel God's presence with them. It's not God that you feel with you. It's just yourself making you believe that it's God.

Oh gosh. You just said everything that was in my head. Thank you.

I've been Roman Catholic my whole life. But, there's been a huge change in the way I think about my religion in the past few years.

I agree with what you said about "losing the fire" and passion in religion if you've been brought up to believe in it your whole life. Ever since I could remember, I found going to church every Sunday and praying every night very mundane. I didn't think there was a point to it, but I did it and didn't ask questions because I thought it was something I HAD to do.

Then, I went through the Rite of Confirmation. I went to classes for 2 years that taught the Confirmandi all about the "why" of Catholic religion. I learned a lot not only about Catholicism, but about myself and where I fit into the religion. Throughout those 2 years of Confirmation class, I was never once told that I "HAD TO" do it. For the first time in my whole religious experience, it was MY choice whether I went through with it or not. And, for the first time, I was actually having fun at my church. I learned that there was more to it than sitting and standing and kneeling in Mass. There was the joy that comes from sharing God's grace with others. It's been a year since I was officially confirmed as a Catholic, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm proud of my religion, and I'm coming back this year as a Youth Minister so I can show other teenagers just how wonderful being a Catholic and believing in Jesus Christ is.

My faith has definitely become more special and meaningful to me ever since I made my own decision to be Catholic.

well... i think if you grew up with it then you will always have at least a little bit of faith.

but if you want to feel conviction again, i think you should read any of those books at any family christian book store... but it usually takes time and an open mind