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ABORTION VERSION TWO
cashmere deer
post Jul 24 2006, 01:29 PM
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QUOTE(Angelina Taylor @ Jul 20 2006, 7:27 AM) *
By the way, I really don't want to continue this - it's pointless. A waste of time. No one will convince anyone otherwise, because we're so damn stubborn. So that's it for me.. I quit.



Me too. As much as everyone keeps saying that 'THIS IS THE DEBATE FORUM! NO OPINIONS!!!1111' well this is an argument that cannot be had without opinions. The facts have been put out there. All of them. Now it is up to individuals to decide what they believe and what they don't. What is the point of continuing this thread if they keep getting scolded each time they do this. According to the facts I myself have decided that I will remain pro-choice. But for now, I leave it up to you.
 
*ECD & C0*
post Jul 24 2006, 05:44 PM
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QUOTE
n animal is alive and helpless, however they have no right to life. So, the qualities of being alive and helpless do not exactly equate a right to life, or any rights for that matter. I would argue that a fetus is so impersonal, worthless, and so little sentient that it is not much unlike a common animal. In fact, in many cases, the common animal is far more human-like than a fetus. Just as I have no ill feelings in knowing that animals are killed for the convienence and comfort of specific types of food, I have no ill feelings in knowing that unborn children are being aborted at the will of their mother. Until that child is born, our society has no real way to recognize it as having personhood and rights with it. Once the child is born, the mother takes a legal obligation towards its well-being, this is meaningful and useful. However, forcing a mother to treat an unborn child as if it were a full-fledged person, just like you or I, is inherently rediculous as the unborn child is so little lile you or I.


wtf a fetus is not worthless, and animals do have a right to life a fetus is a non developed person
 
AngelinaTaylor
post Jul 24 2006, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE(ECD & C0 @ Jul 24 2006, 6:44 PM) *
wtf a fetus is not worthless, and animals do have a right to life a fetus is a non developed person


How do they have a right to live? Animals don't have rights.
 
Comptine
post Jul 25 2006, 12:38 AM
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after replying more times than i can count, i have been exhausted on this topic. obviously, many people here have strong beliefs and leave little room to be swayed.

most people are arguing that it is wrong and that it hurts the babies.

what about this? while many pro-life people focus on undeveloped fetuses, the world has millions of children in dire need of care and love. however, they are neglected for children who have yet to exist. people advocate adoption. many pro-life people are good, solid christian couples who have moderate income. why don't they start adopting? i'm sure that while they shout from the rooftops that adoption is the way to go, a majority of them have failed to go adopt the many 'saved' children.

millions of children are starving, dying from disease, and living in war torn countries.

take care of them before you worry about fetuses who are missing hearts, lungs, and spinal cords.
 
cashmere deer
post Jul 25 2006, 08:20 PM
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Alright I know I said I was done, but hey apparently I am not so stronged willed. First of all ^^^ AMEN! There are tons of other children, LIVING FULLY DEVELOPED humans that need our care.


and also,

QUOTE(Angelina Taylor @ Jul 24 2006, 3:45 PM) *
How do they have a right to live? Animals don't have rights.



WTFTWTFTWTFTWTF. Who are you to decide which life on this earth has the RIGHT to be here? Of course they have a right, or else well they wouldn't be alive in the first place. It is all the same with abortion. People think that they are oh so powerful and get to go around deciding who gets to live and die. But just as in an animals case, that is the animals own right, as it is the mothers.
 
Comptine
post Jul 25 2006, 10:08 PM
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QUOTE(cashmere deer @ Jul 25 2006, 9:20 PM) *
WTFTWTFTWTFTWTF. Who are you to decide which life on this earth has the RIGHT to be here? Of course they have a right, or else well they wouldn't be alive in the first place. It is all the same with abortion. People think that they are oh so powerful and get to go around deciding who gets to live and die. But just as in an animals case, that is the animals own right, as it is the mothers.


it is true that nothing on this world has the right to live. as most westernized civilizations have taught, the right to live is a natural born right and is even listed as so in UN regulataions. however, in other countries, these rights are never guaranteed by the government.

only those who are lucky enough to be born in a developed, western country, have undenible rights to live. in other places, you have to fend for yourself and pray that whatever the government's whim is, it doesn't involve your death.

animal rights are defined by humans. i'm pretty sure if animals could discern rights, it's view of freedom and rights is very different from ours.
 
sadolakced acid
post Jul 26 2006, 01:21 AM
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we are all so powerful. we do get to decide who lives or not (when we talk about animals)

why are dogs pets and cows food? because we choose so.
 
cashmere deer
post Jul 26 2006, 09:01 AM
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I think the overall problem in both arguments is that we think too much of ourselves. We need to stop choosing for every other life form on this planet i.e. unborn babies and choose for our own selves.
 
AngelinaTaylor
post Jul 26 2006, 09:26 AM
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QUOTE(cashmere deer @ Jul 25 2006, 9:20 PM) *
WTFTWTFTWTFTWTF. Who are you to decide which life on this earth has the RIGHT to be here? Of course they have a right, or else well they wouldn't be alive in the first place. It is all the same with abortion. People think that they are oh so powerful and get to go around deciding who gets to live and die. But just as in an animals case, that is the animals own right, as it is the mothers.


Are you kidding me? You honestly think animals have "rights"? Let me tell you what rights are:

QUOTE
Rights are scientific, moral principles that guarantee freedom of action in a social context. The source of an individual's right to life is one's nature as a rational being. Rights are requirements necessary for an individual to live as a rational being (human) in a society of men.


Only human beings have rights. Do you think ants have rights? Butterflies? Bees? Fish? Animals don't have rights. Trees are "life", but they do not have rights.

And humans are "oh so powerful". We do decide who gets to live and die - you eat meat, don't you? (well, unless you're a vegetarian)
 
msladyliberty
post Jul 26 2006, 04:44 PM
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I like Endless Symphony's arguments.

Abortion should be LEGAL.



I don't think it's fair for society to make abortion illegal.


Our Society is trying to improve. We can't have children being born to unfit mothers who cannot physically, mentally, or financially provide for them. Here we are as a society, complaining about higher taxes and more developed crimes among our youths. Many children are suffering from having an unhealthy upbringing.

How can we improve society when we allow children an unfit childhood to parents who can't support them or nurture the life that they need.

It's not fair to the children and it's not fair to society.

That's why SAFE SEX is campaigned! ORAL CONTRACEPTIVES and condoms are being handed out in schools.
 
cashmere deer
post Jul 27 2006, 10:23 PM
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QUOTE(Angelina Taylor @ Jul 26 2006, 7:26 AM) *
Are you kidding me? You honestly think animals have "rights"? Let me tell you what rights are:
Only human beings have rights. Do you think ants have rights? Butterflies? Bees? Fish? Animals don't have rights. Trees are "life", but they do not have rights.

And humans are "oh so powerful". We do decide who gets to live and die - you eat meat, don't you? (well, unless you're a vegetarian)



I believe that everything born into life has that right. The only reason I think abortion is alright is because I do not think it is alive. I hate how people think we are so great, and I am sorry if that in any way offends you but I myself respect all forms of life.



And no..I do not eat meat.
 
AngelinaTaylor
post Jul 28 2006, 11:09 PM
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QUOTE(cashmere deer @ Jul 27 2006, 11:23 PM) *
I believe that everything born into life has that right. The only reason I think abortion is alright is because I do not think it is alive. I hate how people think we are so great, and I am sorry if that in any way offends you but I myself respect all forms of life.
And no..I do not eat meat.


You can believe what you want.. it doesn't matter. It won't make it a fact. It's not true to say that they DO have rights. They don't. There's a difference between belief and reality.
 
sadolakced acid
post Jul 29 2006, 02:17 AM
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^ let her believe what she will.

you can believe what you want, and she can believe what she wants. don't impose your belief on her.

yes, this is debate, and the point is to clash beliefs. but each in thier own thread. animal rights has it's thread, i believe.

as far as i'm concerned, rights are relatated to the domain of overt subjectivity- something that is too much rooted in belief and opinion to be debatable, like religion. there just aren't enough facts that deal with rights- it all comes down to semantics.
 
AngelinaTaylor
post Jul 29 2006, 01:19 PM
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I did leave her to believe what she wanted to believe. People believe things. I may believe that I'm the world's greatest pianist. Doesn't mean I am, does it? I'm not sure you understood the point I was trying to make.

It's a fact that not all living things have rights. Humans have rights because we survive by reason. Ants or trees, however, do not.
 
cashmere deer
post Jul 29 2006, 04:53 PM
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For you to say that I am completely incorrect is a little much. If you were to say brake into your neighbors back yard and murder their dog I don't think that they would accept 'Well it was an animal and it doesn't have the right to live and me being a human gives me the right to kill it' Ummmm no. And yes I know there is an animals rights section but this sort of relates to that in a way that some people consider an unborn child as equal as say an animal. But again...


QUOTE(sadolakced acid @ Jul 29 2006, 12:17 AM) *
as far as i'm concerned, rights are relatated to the domain of overt subjectivity- something that is too much rooted in belief and opinion to be debatable, like religion. there just aren't enough facts that deal with rights- it all comes down to semantics.




This argument as well as the animals rights one all comes back to this. Now can we agree to disagree or can we not?
 
radhikaeatsraman
post Jul 29 2006, 05:11 PM
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QUOTE
If you were to say brake into your neighbors back yard and murder their dog I don't think that they would accept 'Well it was an animal and it doesn't have the right to live and me being a human gives me the right to kill it' Ummmm no.


Yes, but that dog did not belong to the neighbor. That dog's owner did not want his dog to die. That's why it was wrong to kill the dog. Not because it has rights, but because the neighbor killed the dog out of malicious intent. Abortions, however, are not done out of malicious intent. The fetus is technically not a life, therefore, it does not have rights. The mother should have the right to do what she feels is right with her body, because she is a human being and she has an understanding of what a right is.
 
AngelinaTaylor
post Jul 29 2006, 05:11 PM
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QUOTE(cashmere deer @ Jul 29 2006, 5:53 PM) *
For you to say that I am completely incorrect is a little much. If you were to say brake into your neighbors back yard and murder their dog I don't think that they would accept 'Well it was an animal and it doesn't have the right to live and me being a human gives me the right to kill it' Ummmm no. And yes I know there is an animals rights section but this sort of relates to that in a way that some people consider an unborn child as equal as say an animal.


That's true, but the dog would belong to the owners. That's why it wouldn't be ok. You wouldn't get in that much trouble killing a homeless dog. (by the way, I've seen none in North America.. but back in Europe they're on the streets everywhere)

I too believe they should have rights because they're alive, but they just don't.

Hmm. I don't think people can compare an animal with an unborn child (especially in the early years of the pregnancy)..
 
cashmere deer
post Jul 29 2006, 05:47 PM
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QUOTE(Angelina Taylor @ Jul 29 2006, 3:11 PM) *
That's true, but the dog would belong to the owners. That's why it wouldn't be ok. You wouldn't get in that much trouble killing a homeless dog. (by the way, I've seen none in North America.. but back in Europe they're on the streets everywhere)

I too believe they should have rights because they're alive, but they just don't.

Hmm. I don't think people can compare an animal with an unborn child (especially in the early years of the pregnancy)..




We have our fair share of homeless dogs in america. And saying that you wouldn't get into that much trouble for killing a homeless dog is completely untrue. We have animal rights laws thus animals DO have rights. Ever heard of animal abuse? ASPCA? Yes, they are there to protect their right to not be harmed. People have gone to jail for many years for abusing animals and although it may not be as serious as hurting a human it still is true.


Now, on the abortion issue. You guys seem to be getting confused on what side I am on. I am pro-choice and I do think that the unborn child is not technically alive yet so it is okay to abort it in the right circumstances. And I think that the mother has the right to determine what those circumstances may be.
 
AngelinaTaylor
post Jul 29 2006, 07:39 PM
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QUOTE(cashmere deer @ Jul 29 2006, 6:47 PM) *
We have our fair share of homeless dogs in america. And saying that you wouldn't get into that much trouble for killing a homeless dog is completely untrue. We have animal rights laws thus animals DO have rights. Ever heard of animal abuse? ASPCA? Yes, they are there to protect their right to not be harmed. People have gone to jail for many years for abusing animals and although it may not be as serious as hurting a human it still is true.

Now, on the abortion issue. You guys seem to be getting confused on what side I am on. I am pro-choice and I do think that the unborn child is not technically alive yet so it is okay to abort it in the right circumstances. And I think that the mother has the right to determine what those circumstances may be.


I know what side you're on about abortion.

And ASPCA is a society for the prevention of cruelty to animals. It doesn't give animals rights.
 
cashmere deer
post Jul 29 2006, 09:19 PM
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QUOTE(Angelina Taylor @ Jul 29 2006, 5:39 PM) *
I know what side you're on about abortion.

And ASPCA is a society for the prevention of cruelty to animals. It doesn't give animals rights.



What do you think rights are? The aspca provides animals with the rights to not be harmed. Those are rights even though they aren't the same kinds we have they are rights. i.e. the right to LIVE, which was our initial argument.
 
sadolakced acid
post Jul 29 2006, 09:43 PM
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QUOTE(cashmere deer @ Jul 29 2006, 4:53 PM) *
.
This argument as well as the animals rights one all comes back to this. Now can we agree to disagree or can we not?


in this topic, we can disagree about animal rights. but not in the animal rights topic. otherwise there's no debate.
 
cashmere deer
post Jul 29 2006, 09:58 PM
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...i would have though it would be the other way around, or else we'd be stuck discussing animal rights here rather than abortion.
 
AngelinaTaylor
post Jul 30 2006, 09:38 PM
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QUOTE(cashmere deer @ Jul 29 2006, 10:19 PM) *
What do you think rights are? The aspca provides animals with the rights to not be harmed. Those are rights even though they aren't the same kinds we have they are rights. i.e. the right to LIVE, which was our initial argument.


Then what was the point of you bringing them up? They're not the kinds of rights I was referring to, but whatever. This isn't the thread for it.
 
sadolakced acid
post Aug 2 2006, 02:14 AM
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QUOTE(cashmere deer @ Jul 29 2006, 9:58 PM) *
...i would have though it would be the other way around, or else we'd be stuck discussing animal rights here rather than abortion.



i meant we can disagree peacefully here about animal rights, but in the animal rights debate, it's all out.
 
xnarcotic
post Aug 2 2006, 04:20 AM
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as much as everyone is making their points about the adoption thing, would you want to give up a child that you`ve bonded with over the 9 months it has been in your womb? a lot of people on this forum have made the idea of having an abortion easy. it isn`t. you don`t know what it`s like until you`ve been there. and i have been there. and really, i don`t care how much hate mail or anything you want to give me over it. i had to make my choice because i have medical problems, and i didn`t feel like dying over having a child. and with what everyone is saying, i`m guessing a lot of you are probably 15 or 16 without the slightest f**king clue on what REAL life is. wait until you`re stuck with a decision like this and then see how EASY it is to give a child you`ve bonded with away, or take care of that child. have fun on welfare. and have fun working 3 jobs. i hate you closed minded f**king people. riding around on your high horses like you`ve never done something bad in your life. you don`t think 99% of the people who get abortions hate what they had to do? you`re dead wrong. yeah, some people use it as a birth control method, but the people who honestly NEED it so they can live a good life don`t go a day without thinking about what they did. i know i do. not a DAY goes by without me thinking about that decision. so don`t f**king go around saying that anyone who has an abortion is a piece of shit. because if you do, you`re even more of a piece of shit than them. you ignorant fucks.
 

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